Here are a few comments (from Page 6) I didn’t get to respond to:
“M.O.P. R.I.P.”
MOP is dead? Sadly that announcement is not true. If Erwin has repented of his wrong and is willing to make things right, please contact us. Otherwise, there is still a need for Mosaic Of Pain. There was a clarification to the RIP… someone posted “Looks like R.I.P. = REAL INTENSE PAIN”. I couldn’t agree more.
“…ps will you publish this? i wonder”
How many times will this be asked? I wonder. I have chosen to publish almost everything. As painful as this has been at times, 99.9% goes up. Maybe some believe ideas, questions, challenges are not worth much. They are here. I can tell you what doesn’t work all that well… statements without being up to date with this blog. My suggestion, go back and read all of the comments before you make statements OR if you don’t want to read (there is quite a bit) ask questions, questions are good.
“…Pick a new topic, please! I hope you guys aren't going to be this way in heaven. Geesh!”
Ummmm…. New topic??? This is Mosaic Of Pain. What are you expecting? Ok… how about a nice bible study. Check out Ron’s new article ERWIN MCMANUS’S FALSE TEACHINGS - PART 2: “YOU HAVE INCREDIBLE POTENTIAL” Enjoy!
“When you turning the page chris?”
I am turning it... Now. It took me longer than normal because MOP’s payroll department messed up on my paycheck and I refused to turn the page until they paid me. This is the second time so something needed to be done. I had to draw the line somewhere! Also, if mop management doesn't fixthe air conditioning I am going on strike!
“…A serious note to think about is that Erwin and his into the mystic brother "train" pastors. Now that is something to be concerned about.”
Yes… that is very scary. On a similar note, they have over 80 in their “alliance”. Check out their progress and the conditions to being in their alliance:
http://www.mosaicalliance.com
“…Matt Shriver aka Bibleman”
wow!
“…Is there any real purpose to all of this? What can a MOP do to change any of it?”
For the purpose please read the mission statement. Another way to think of MOP is a road sign, a warning sign. As for change, it is already happening. Erwin may not change but people are asking questions and that should lead to clarity which should lead to change. I have personally talked to Mosaic members, “staff” and higher level leaders (paid & unpaid) and have been thanked for my part and encouraged to continue. I never thought we would have that type of support and I for one appreciate it. It does make it easier knowing that some close to the situation are in agreement. I have several friends that are members of the church and we all hope the church makes it through this. Even though these people are in agreement or know something is wrong and are starting to ask questions, they continue to attend the church. I encourage most to stay but encourage them to continue asking questions and study the issues presented. They stay primarily due to relationships. They love their friends and don’t want to lose what they have. This is understandable. I and others are praying for them because this process can be very painful. Questions are dangerous at this church, if you are in disagreement, just try a question or two.
“I read on this blog that someone from another state found this site from a google search of Erwin McManus’s name. He said that he had questions about Erwin McManus and that this site answered some of his questions. Also, there was a woman from Apple Valley said that she and some members of her church had been interested in Mosaic teachings until she found this site. About two months ago I ran into an old friend of mine who said he was looking for a church for his family. I was surprised when he said that an old classmate of his who will remain nameless told him about this site. He ruled out Mosaic to raise his kids and chose another church. This is what is going on here.”
Yes… so true.
Individual’s have gathered due to the fact there is a pattern of abuse, a pattern of pain. Word is getting out. On the average day there are 49 unique readers with a low of 16 and a high of 249. Conservatively I am estimating there are 500 to 600 unique readers a month. Since Feb 18th 07, we have had over 21,523 page views on these comments pages alone. August was the 2nd strongest month as far as the number of page views and unique visitors. The numbers are growing steadily.
My hope is that one day we can put mop to rest. Until then, we continue...
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198 comments:
You GO MOP!!!
Thanks Cris for the update. And what a shame that this site has to be up, we pray for the day it comes down with its proper resolution.
P.S. I hope you get that air conditioning problem fixed. I know
the moppers can be a little conservative with their finances. MH
Is a unique visitor, a first-time visitor? Also, looking at all the articles and comments and the communication (post) with Mosaic one understands why this site is still up.
I am turning it... Now. It took me longer than normal because MOP’s payroll department messed up on my paycheck and I refused to turn the page until they paid me. This is the second time so something needed to be done. I had to draw the line somewhere! Also, if mop management doesn't fixthe air conditioning I am going on strike!
Very funny Chris!
By the way, for all the new readers out there, Chris is making fun of himself by writing this: there is no official MOP organization, no payroll department, and no upper management; there is just Chris.
I do sympathize with the lack of air-conditioning, the weather has been brutal here in sunny Southern California.
Hope you get it fixed soon.
Yvonne
I have a question regarding Yvonne's latest post. I understand that Mosaic has a film company uner Awaken Films. I see that a few shorts and "bumpers" have been made, but what happened to the films? What films have been made?
Also, there appears to be over 68,000 raised for Awaken Humanity that has not been allocated? Does all this money go to the overseas workers? It looks like Awaken has made some changes in the past couple of months, probably in result of Yvonne, but I'm sure the congregation would like to know where the bulk of the money raised is going to.
Thanks for that clarification Yvonne, I had this picture of Cris behind a desk, with poor lighting, and Robby waving his finger no and pointing to the AC.
It's interesting that Mosaic is a Southern Baptist church, which has an organization, the International Mission Board, which completely supports it's overseas workers. So, what Overseas Workers are getting additional support? Maybe it is money sent that way for special projects, which is fine, but should be stated. The, "Supporting Overseas Workers" is a bit of a stretch, it would seem.
"...So, what Overseas Workers are getting additional support? Maybe it is money sent that way for special projects, which is fine, but should be stated. The, "Supporting Overseas Workers" is a bit of a stretch, it would seem."
Is Erwin a "P"?(Meyers-Briggs) Because there seems to be statements made by he an his organization that are fuzzy, not clear. When it comes to money you should be more of a "J". Maybe I'm mistaken here. Can someone at Mosaic clear this up? Maybe Janice?
By the way, for all the new readers out there, Chris is making fun of himself by writing this: there is no official MOP organization, no payroll department, and no upper management; there is just Chris.
Yvonne has spoken truth. I was just kidding. Although it was HOT! That was no joke! But no payroll and no management team. Just a little joke.
Anonymous said...
Is a unique visitor, a first-time visitor?
No. The unique number definition is my own... The number of diffrent visitors to the site. I am estimating looking at all the #'s available to me.
Also... Page View - A page view is tracked everytime there is a hit to the page.
I only mention the numbers to let you in on some info that I have regarding the traffic the site is generating considering some still deny there is an issue at all and others deny that anyone is intersted.
Also the numbers I listed are for the comments section only. If you were to add the related sites i.e. MosaicOfPain.com, Ruben' Reviews, Robbies Discovering Truth, Orginal MOP site, etc. then we are talking well over 100k in pageviews. People are reading, that I am sure of.
I just came across this interesting bit of conversation between Mosaic's Eric Bryant and "Sam from Texas" at the official Mosaic website faq's:
http://mosaic.org/faq#quotes
45. Eric Bryant
Jul 9th, 2007 at 10:29 am
Saw several questions above that we didn’t answer. Sorry about that! For more questions about specific doctrinal issues, go to http://www.sbc.net/bfm/bfm2000.asp or contact me directly at eric@mosaic.org.
Blessings,
Eric
[Skip down 2 comments to read the one from Sam . . .]
48. Sam
Aug 15th, 2007 at 1:10 pm
Hi, I have a question about your answer to the “doctrine” question. I referred to the Baptist Faith and Message link. It says this under section V:
“God’s Purpose of Grace
Election is the gracious purpose of God, according to which He regenerates, justifies, sanctifies, and glorifies sinners. It is consistent with the free agency of man, and comprehends all the means in connection with the end. It is the glorious display of God’s sovereign goodness, and is infinitely wise, holy, and unchangeable. It excludes boasting and promotes humility.
But I read Ron Foster’s article, I think the title was “Erwin McManus Plays Dominoes with the Bible.” Did Erwin say that the doctrine of election is not biblical? I’m confused. Does Mosaic agree or disagree with the BFM on this point? And if they disagree, then why refer us to it in answer to that question? Just curious.
Thanks,
Sam Wen
49. Eric Bryant
Aug 20th, 2007 at 9:58 am
Hey Sam,
Thanks for your question. I have never heard of Ron Foster nor has he
interviewed Erwin. I wouldn’t believe most of the blogs written about
well-known people unless they have interviewed them or at least
contacted the person about whom they are writing.
Erwin and Mosaic embraces the Baptist Faith and Message. Erwin recently
talked about Election during his series “Life’s Toughest Questions.”
These are available at the Mosaic gatherings or online at
www.awaken.org. I won’t be able to quote him directly but in essence at
one point he said, “When God chose Abram he was choosing humanity.” He
sees election as an example of God’s love for embracing people.
Hope that helps.
Are you a part of Mosaic or do you live elsewhere?
Blessings,
Eric
50. Sam
Aug 25th, 2007 at 10:06 am
Thanks Eric. Nope, I don’t go to Mosaic. I hail from the great state of Texas! But I do catch Erwin’s podcasts from time to time. Thanks for the quick response.
Sam
http://www.christianitytoday.com/le/2005/004/22.137.html
Leadership Journal, Fall 2005
Panel-Hummer or Honda? What Should a Pastor Drive?
Consider creation and your congregation when buying a car.
See how Erwin McManus answered this question!
Ron, In the years you attended Mosaic did you ever run across Eric? I'm curious, because he's a little more accessible than Erwin. Did you know him?
Yeah, if Eric Bryant said, "I have never heard of Ron Foster nor has he
interviewed Erwin."
How disingenuous would that be?
Yvonne,
Erwin's answer didn't surprise me, but I really thought the response to this question by Dave Terpstra (two responses below Erwin hit it on the head)
"A pastor's car should be like a pastor's Sunday morning outfit—it should bring no attention to itself. We should drive cars that nobody, including the pastor, has to think about. A pastor shouldn't have to worry about it breaking down, neither should they be concerned about what it does to their egos or to God's creation.
Pastors who spend more on their car than they contribute to the poor disturb me, just like pastors who use their car to help perpetuate an "image." A car is not something that makes you culturally relevant. In fact, pastors prove their irrelevance if they act like the rest of the world when purchasing a car."
--Dave Terpstra
Maybe being "relavent" doesn't end on stage, but finds its way in the automobile.
Below is a link to a short biography of Ron Foster.
http://www.christianworldviewnetwork.com/bio.php?AuthorID=154
I especially like this part in Ron's bio, There, he joined and became a member and leader in Mosaic Church under Erwin McManus.
Yet, Eric Bryant has "never heard of him". Sure, maybe he never met Ron, but never heard of him???
"In fact, pastors prove their irrelevance if they act like the rest of the world when purchasing a car."
--Dave Terpstra
I like this guy...where is he a Pastor?
After years of attending Mosaic, I have finally moved on. I use to be "on mission" with them but I now must travel on a different path. I use to believe that loving the unbelievers was the most important thing in the world! Jesus came for the lost right?!?! It was like one big game of blob tag (think 5th grade guys!). Once you get tagged, it was up to you and the person who tagged you to catch everyone else to bring them to your team.
But then I started to notice that if you were a believer, then people really didn't care about you unless you had something to offer like an artistic talent. You old time mosaic people know EXACTLY what I am talking about. MOP is proof of that. They don't care enough to respond because they don't have time for you. Maybe if you were a public figure, famous actor or actress or maybe if you could dance like Barisnikov they would call you because they want to make things right asap so they can get you back on stage.
They are too focused on the mission (not necessary the gospel but selling books and doing book tours). This to me never felt genuine or biblical. I started to think that we got it backwards. In Acts, weren't new believers added to their numbers daily BECAUSE of the love they had for each other (others being fellow believers)? I don't know Robbie Sortino but if he was once in your inner inner INNER circle, wouldn't you, Erwin, call the guy in his darkest hour? Instead, you sent someone else to check on him. That is not the actions of a shepard who is suppose to love and care for his sheep but rather a guy who is so self absorbed that he is completely oblivious. At the least, you let your friend down. Be a man and apologize. If you feel you did nothing wrong, then you need to get a reality check because something is WAYYYY OFF. Please, get some counseling. Not from one of your "super fans" at Mosaic who are just going to tell you that you didn't do anything wrong, but find some REAL independent outside help. I am serious man. I am sure the SBC has something. There is no shame in reaching out for help for your narcisstic behavior. If you don't think you have narcisstic tendencies then ask 10 of the most honest people you know for complete and brutal honesty. If even one or two of them say yes, muliply that by the size of your congregation and that is approximately how many people feel this way about you (it might even be more). it's a problem right? If you get help, it shows that you are a 3 dimensional person who struggles with his flesh like we all do. People like that stuff!
On the subject of people leaving, its not just the people on MOP who left, people are leaving in droves!!! You could start 5 churches with the number of people who have left in the past 3 years. People are starting to catch on. We are tired of the hypocrisy. I estimate that 70% of the people who stop attending leave with a bad/semi-bad taste in their mouths. Stop your grandstanding about how great Mosaic is and how we get it and they don't. Frankly it's embarassing. We don't get it. I guess we never did. Love your neighbor means everyone, not just the unbeliever. You can fool them for a little while but people aren't dumb. they catch on. It took me 6 years because I am slow!
To make a long story short, I left because I no longer feel that we are preaching the truth and the little truth that we do preach, we don't live. I know Erwin will eventually leave Mosaic (Yes you heard it here folks). His plan is to put Eric Bryant in place and take off to become an international speaker/writer/guru/futurist/poet/artist whatever. I think he realizes that Mosaic is not going to be the super mega church that takes down all of los Angeles anytime soon. He already made a name for himself at Mosaic and he might as well parlay that into a lucrative international speaking gig. Write as many book as you like about the same subject. I don't need to read your next new book in 2008 but I can already tell you what it's about. And for the love of Moses, stop pressuring your congregation to buy your book, join a book club, or pass off copies to their co-worker and friends! How can you declare yourself a futurist when you haven't even learned anything from your past? Make right the wrong Erwin. Come clean. You'll feel better.
notorious e.r.i.c.
p.s. let me say something positive so i won't get blasted and everyone who reads this get a warm fuzzy glow.
I use to think that missionary was someone who went to africa or china or some other exotic place on the planet to share the gospel. what I learned from mosaic is that we are all missionarys. it just so happens that my mission field is my neighbors next door or my co-workers. This idea, although simple, blew me away because it was an obvious truth that I never got until I started going to Mosaic
Good word Notorious.
Yes, the word missionary means literally, "messenger". That is to happen wherever we find ourselves. If I'm not mistaken that comes from Brady days as well.
As a matter of fact, one would be surprised how many good teachings that Mosaic has from Brady!
Eddie M
Eddie I believe it was called Oikos Evangelism.
http://www.kristenonline.com/download/book/oikos%20evangelism.pdf
Here's something our friend Erwin needs to read:
http://64.147.16.238/repent/Youre_Not_Fulfilling_Your_Biblical_Duty%21.html
I want to be clear...I feel that my Brothers and Sisters at Mosaic, that includes Erwin, are Believers, not Apostate or "Wolves in Sheep's clothing", etc...
My purpose here, as is the same of many on MOP that I have heard from or talked to, is to call Mosaic and her Body to be more loving to the Flock of Believers at large.
There seems to be a very simple division of who the Church is suppose to minister to. All I want to do is ask that, individuals that have used that difference of opinion go back and make their wrongs right, and stop abusing other Believers in the name of Christ.
God's Speed to all.
Eddie Marshall
For those of you who have been following my 4 part series, "Shining Daylight on Erwin McManus' Awaken:"
Mosaic has updated its newsletter to a September issue.
The financial information I quoted from the August issue is no longer available.
I retained a printed copy of the August issue for my records.
Yvonne W.
Frankly, when I did a talk on Hell this week and why Hell was God's most loving act, the nightclub was just packed this week because of word-of-mouth. People were going, "What's he gonna talk about?" What we're doing now is people are e-mailing us questions around the world and I am reading their questions and saying, "This is the subject today" because I got 20 questions on "Is it okay to be gay?" And I just tell them, "Look, I'm not telling you that I'm gonna give you the best answer. I'm not even telling you that my answer is adequate. But I am gonna engage you in a conversation you will want to continue."
Interview with Infuze Magazine: http://www.infuzemag.com/interviews/books/erwin_mcmanus/
So let's have it. Is it ok to be gay?
"So let's have it. Is it ok to be gay?"
I can attest that a heated conversation with a prebeliever ACUAINTANCE about such sensitive issues as abortion, cohabitation, or homosexuality can make Christians seem judgemental or condenming. I think what Erwin McManus promotes is giving an opportunity for a relationship to start and gain trust so that you will get to a point in the relationship where you can share truth and actually be heard and not shut out of that person's life.
Well, that's good and all in one- on-one relationships. But the controversy seems to come when a church leader like Erwin tries to have this same approach with alarger audience, i.e. Los Angeles population, Mosaic audience, etc. If you try to beat around the bush just so that people will eventually come to church and incorporate into community, than break the truth to them that homosexuality is a sinful lifestyle, we are setting ourselves up for one of two reactions.
A positive reaction would be that the person recognizes that their relationship with Christ is inconsistent with homosexuality according to the scriptures and how the Spirit convicts. Negative reaction would be that a person would feel ambushed and that the only reason people showed love to them in the first place was to convert them to Christianity. I guess this nonjudgmental approach to evangelism is worth the risk as there will be those that do respond to the call of Christ and begin to come to their own convictions about such hot topics.
On the flip side, in every approach to evangelism, there are going to be those that fall away for a variety of reasons.
I once invited a guy at work to go hiking with my small group from church. He may have been more blunt than the average person and said, "you just want me to go so that I will start going to your church and follow Jesus." I could have attemted to convince him that I was more interested in his physical health, but instead admitted to him that he was right. I then took the opportunity to share how Jesus has changed my life and just wanted him to experience the same. I would hope that appreciated my honesty more than pretending to care about us hiking together.
However, when a church leader takes a bland approach to truth like one recent teaching where the speaker asked, "How do we come to know God?" then proceded to share his experiences at an orphanage and how that experience gave him the heart of God. The guest with me at church did not go away any closer to salvation that comes through faith and repentance. If anything, they went away with the wrong gospel.
I think Christian leaders need to be careful not to confuse public speaking of truth with their own personal approaches to evangelism.
Just some thoughts,
Bibleman
Now I see why they call him, "Bibleman".
Bibleman
You are absolutely right!
Eph6:19-20
"Pray also for me, that whenever I open my mouth, words may be given me so that I will fearlessly make known the mystery of the gospel, for which I am an ambassador in chains. Pray that I may declare it fearlessly, as I should."
1Cor1:17
"For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel - not with words of human wisdon, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power."
Honestly, I don't think we could ever "sell" the gospel. The idea that I need to give up my sinful nature and my life to follow Christ just because he said he is the son of God is ridiculous on face value. I don't think any of us are that "good" at selling.
Just tell the truth and let the Holy Spirit do his magic. We are not the one's who are suppose to "close" the deal. We are merely messengers. All glory goes to God.
This whole conversation reminds me of the movie A Few Good Men.
"I want the truth"
"You can't handle the truth!!!"
"Colonel Jessup, did you order the code red!!!"
just a thought
Notorious E.R.I.C.
Thanks for sharing bibleman. I know that the group Mosaic attracks are artist. I am around artist all the time and I know that this is a special group that needs a lot of love and honesty. A concern I've had for some time now regarding Mosaic. The messages on the podcast appear to skirt around the issue. I don't recall Erwin addressing it in all the years I attended, so I wasn't sure, but I had the sense that this issue was a difficult one to address by Erwin, knowing the demographics of his congregation. I think we need men to speak out boldly, even if they're going to loose the numbers.
Just a thought. Most of the moppers I know are artist. Writers, Musicians, actors, producers,directors,editors, etc. So making art is wonderful, but I don't think any of these brothers and sister are spiritual because of their creativity. Their gifts are from God. But not all are artist, like not all are teachers or prophtets. etc.
Greater is he that is in you than he that is in the world.
1John 4:4
It seems that Mr. McManus is rather upset by this web site. He has ranted and raved behind closed doors about it. He has sent his leaders to try and shut it down.
Of course he is upset. This site points out that no matter what he "says", Christianity is about what we "do" not what we say.
Jesus was very clear on that, in not only His words but actions as well...
Mosaic needs to look at how Erwin has responded, or not responded, to this site and it's claims.
Inaction is the greatest bit of evidence when it comes to defending one's reputation.
If you were accused of these abuses, would you go silent?
I offer, if you are guilty you would.
Yes! That's it.
If Erwin would have lived his words there would be no need for a MOP...
Matt,
You mentioned at the bottom of page 6 that you were trying to contact Erwin. And that was on the 12th. Any luck?
I have found Mosaic to be an amazing place full of wonderful people. They made me feel like I finally had a home. I love the stuff Mosaic and Erwin are doing and I hope they continue to do the same things they are doing. If it was not for Erwin and Mosaic, I would probably not be a follower of Jesus. They are an amazing group of people doing amazing things. If you are unhappy with how things are, instead of gossiping about they why not get involved to make things better?
"I have found Mosaic to be an amazing place full of wonderful people. They made me feel like I finally had a home. I love the stuff Mosaic and Erwin are doing and I hope they continue to do the same things they are doing. If it was not for Erwin and Mosaic, I would probably not be a follower of Jesus. They are an amazing group of people doing amazing things. If you are unhappy with how things are, instead of gossiping about they why not get involved to make things better?"
If some of the claims made here were true, would it still be "gossip"?
We have been through this accusation, "the gossip" claim.
In short, gossip is when people talk about something without any purpose to see the problem corrected. Trust us, that is not the case here.
By the way, many individuals could say the exact same thing you have above about, Jimmy Swagart, Jim Baker, Ted Haggard, etc..
We do not claim that there are any sex scandals at Mosaic, rather abuse of power and leadership when it comes to past and current leaders and members.
If your focus is on Jesus, which I believe it is, this should not be that difficult to hear.
It has been nine months since I first started reading this blog and contributing to it. The time that it takes a conceived cell to develop into a full-sized newborn baby, so has this situation given birth to resolution at least for me.
I was given the opportunity to meet with Erwin the other night. I was given a chance to strongly voice my concerns and ask difficult questions. This was a challenging conversation that left me exhausted with a mind full of racing thoughts and a heart filled with powerful emotions.
First, I want say on behalf of someone who has belonged to Mosaic for 17 years, that I am sorry for how those members of Mosiac of Pain have been hurt. Frank Loaiza, I’m sorry that your legitimate concerns were turned into a one-sided point of view taken out of context and turned into a story of how ignorant Christians can be. Robbie Sortino, I want to apologize on behalf of Mosaic for not supporting you more during your time of trouble and for any hurtful words that were spoken of you publicly. To the others that have been hurt through words and deeds, I too want to give my apologies and ask for your forgiveness.
I can honestly say that I have done my best to bring about a forum for MOP to be heard. I want to see peace come out of this situation and will continue to pray to that end. In some strange way I feel a connection with Christ through this all. I put my name and reputation to my beliefs at the risk of losing a lot. Apparently, that relatively small sacrifice has not made any difference. However, the sacrifice that Jesus made for our peace far surpasses anything I will ever give up. And yet, here we are holding our pain and offences against one another as though there still remains a debt to be paid.
This reminds me of the man who was taken before the king with a great debt to be paid. Jesus taught that the man was shown mercy and released with his life and his estate intact. Then, the man went out and saw someone who owed him much less. The man badgered the debtor and took him before the judge who recognized him as the man who was forgiven much. In the end, the man was held responsible for his own debt for not forgiving the small debt that was owed to him.
This situation also reminds me of the movie Crimson Tide with Gene Hackman and Denzel Washington. Hackman was the captain of a US sub that only received partial transmission of a telegram stating that the Russians were launching warheads and to stand by for further orders. Then the telegram machine broke. The tension arose when Hackman wanted to proceed with launching the sub’s nuclear missles in order to defend the USA. As the sub’s XO, Washington was not about to let Hackmen proceed without the complete orders to go ahead with the launch. This lead to mutiny of the ship and both sides would justify themselves with military procedural manuals and training they had received. However, in the end when the two men stood before the court martial judges, they were both strongly reprimanded for the way they handled the situation in front of their men.
I have shared already that I wanted to meet with Pastor Erwin in order to go back to the biblical pattern of conflict resolution. Despite my strong criticisms of him, he granted me this meeting. I believe that all my questions and concerns are legitimate and should be addressed. However, the way that I went about voicing them was inappropriate and I not only owe members of Mosaic of Pain an apology, but also the leaders I have served under including Pastor Erwin.
With this in mind, I request that my entries on the Mosaic of Pain blog be deleted. I now believe this is an inappropriate method of seeking resolution and can bring negative impact to the reputation of the children of God and to our Lord. Please honor my request as I now ask God for forgiveness and thus shift the weight of responsibility to those that have the power to leave them or delete them. Please delete this entry as well after suitable time has been given to those that may benefit from reading it.
And to those that might be thinking, “We must speak out in order to prevent others from getting hurt.” I would compare that to a person born blind who supports the use of abortion to prevent anyone else from experiencing the pain of being blind. Listening to music by Jenny Owens and how much she loves God despite her “pain of blindness” just shows how God can use even our most painful hours to be used to His glory and purposes. To me speaking out unbiblically is just as unbiblical as supporting the murder of unborn children.
I have to leave this all behind now. I have to get back to my mission as a follower of Christ (I recommend the movie “The Bridge” as a reality check for us all). If I don’t let this go now, I will look back at my life one day and wonder what happened. I might have to do that already.
Mosaic and Mosaic of Pain, you will always be in my thoughts and prayers.
Your brother in the Lord,
Matt Shriver
Matt,
All I can say is there is one very big difference between the man in the Bible who requested forgiveness of his debt and Erwin.
The man in the Bible admitted his wrong and asked forgiveness.
Eddie Marshall
Matt,
Thank you for your apologies. But you didn't wrong us. And you being proactive in meeting with Erwin was great. I'm personally not surprised that Erwin met with you. Your a man of integrity and your post speaks of your character. Many of us have followed the biblical path of confronting a person in the church that is sinning (Erwin). I think the bloggs are unfortunate, but necessary to protect the flock from more harm. And I think we can agree that in fact that has happened. I do disagree with your analogies regarding the blind man and Jenny Owens, I think you misunderstand. I think the analogy that make sense for me is the one regarding; if my neighbor is physically abusing his son and I know about it but do nothing. What does that say about me. But I'll stand before God and answer for it. Also, I have long left Mosaic, but Erwin is now a public figure, and his writings and podcast need to be addressed. The "Church" is being affect by these false teachers and the Emerging Church movevent, which Erwin is a part of. We need to stand up and take our Church back. I will not be silent. I can't. Time is short. I love you and wish you God's speed in whatever lies before you.
Jacob Aguilar
So Matt, what kind of explanations did you hear when meeting with Erwin? What exactly caused you to retreat from your position? There must be some very clear evidence, other than an analogy towards a couple of movies.
Matt,
Pretty much anyone can come into this free and open forum and make statements and they will always be heard, but that does not mean they will not be challenged.
Can you please explain how speaking out about Pastoral abuses that are swept under the carpet over and over again, is "unbiblical"?
"First, I want say on behalf of someone who has belonged to Mosaic for 17 years, that I am sorry for how those members of Mosiac of Pain have been hurt. Frank Loaiza, I’m sorry that your legitimate concerns were turned into a one-sided point of view taken out of context and turned into a story of how ignorant Christians can be. Robbie Sortino, I want to apologize on behalf of Mosaic for not supporting you more during your time of trouble and for any hurtful words that were spoken of you publicly. To the others that have been hurt through words and deeds, I too want to give my apologies and ask for your forgiveness."
Matt Shriver
Why can't Erwin say the above? Or at least attempt to.
"Why can't Erwin say the above? Or at least attempt to."
As long as he has the "Matts" to do it for him, why should he?
Matt: did you ask Erwin if he demanded the resignations of all the elders? Did you ask him if he used Alex to fire Gerardo Marti? Did you ask him how Gerardo felt about this? Did you ask him the circumstances regarding Robert Martinez? Did you ask him why he has kept these little tidbits from his volunteer staff?
Matt Shriver's meeting with Erwin and his team is the exact example why meeting privately with this group is counter productive.
Do you hear freedom, confidence and understanding in Matt's report of his meeting with Erwin?
"Know the Truth and the Truth shall set you free."
I don't read freedom in Matt's last comment, I read confusion and bondage...
Shame on you Mosaic. You had another chance to attempt to make things right and you said NO.
Shame on you Mosaic. How many of your leaders have played games and politics with this issue for far too long now?
Shame on you Mosaic, a member of your own group tried to bring healing and your leaders chose to run interference and make any real dialog impossible.
MOP unite and stand for Truth and justice!!!
Pray that God will move and shed His light on the darkness and expose the lies and deception of this leader.
Erwin McManus' Wikipedia page states, "He believes that the Gospel message has been made irrelevant by Christian speak, or Christianese and consequently, that Christians have "lost touch with reality."
Wow, not "some" Christians. But, Christians have lost touch with reality (meaning the entire lot of us?). All except for McManus himself! Thankfully we have a new and relevant leader to show us the way.
I can't wait to learn the new and improved, relevant "speak" that he will soon teach us.
Matt,
What happened? Did you reconcile? Besides apologizing and feeling this wasn't the best venue, what happened? There are people with real concerns here and you went with alot of questions, did you get answers?
Okay, we were a little distracted there with the Matt thing and all...
During that time there was a very interesting comment posted that was pretty much over looked. It deserves a second look:
Anonymous said...
After years of attending Mosaic, I have finally moved on. I use to be "on mission" with them but I now must travel on a different path. I use to believe that loving the unbelievers was the most important thing in the world! Jesus came for the lost right?!?! It was like one big game of blob tag (think 5th grade guys!). Once you get tagged, it was up to you and the person who tagged you to catch everyone else to bring them to your team.
But then I started to notice that if you were a believer, then people really didn't care about you unless you had something to offer like an artistic talent. You old time mosaic people know EXACTLY what I am talking about. MOP is proof of that. They don't care enough to respond because they don't have time for you. Maybe if you were a public figure, famous actor or actress or maybe if you could dance like Barisnikov they would call you because they want to make things right asap so they can get you back on stage.
They are too focused on the mission (not necessary the gospel but selling books and doing book tours). This to me never felt genuine or biblical. I started to think that we got it backwards. In Acts, weren't new believers added to their numbers daily BECAUSE of the love they had for each other (others being fellow believers)? I don't know Robbie Sortino but if he was once in your inner inner INNER circle, wouldn't you, Erwin, call the guy in his darkest hour? Instead, you sent someone else to check on him. That is not the actions of a shepard who is suppose to love and care for his sheep but rather a guy who is so self absorbed that he is completely oblivious. At the least, you let your friend down. Be a man and apologize. If you feel you did nothing wrong, then you need to get a reality check because something is WAYYYY OFF. Please, get some counseling. Not from one of your "super fans" at Mosaic who are just going to tell you that you didn't do anything wrong, but find some REAL independent outside help. I am serious man. I am sure the SBC has something. There is no shame in reaching out for help for your narcisstic behavior. If you don't think you have narcisstic tendencies then ask 10 of the most honest people you know for complete and brutal honesty. If even one or two of them say yes, muliply that by the size of your congregation and that is approximately how many people feel this way about you (it might even be more). it's a problem right? If you get help, it shows that you are a 3 dimensional person who struggles with his flesh like we all do. People like that stuff!
On the subject of people leaving, its not just the people on MOP who left, people are leaving in droves!!! You could start 5 churches with the number of people who have left in the past 3 years. People are starting to catch on. We are tired of the hypocrisy. I estimate that 70% of the people who stop attending leave with a bad/semi-bad taste in their mouths. Stop your grandstanding about how great Mosaic is and how we get it and they don't. Frankly it's embarassing. We don't get it. I guess we never did. Love your neighbor means everyone, not just the unbeliever. You can fool them for a little while but people aren't dumb. they catch on. It took me 6 years because I am slow!
To make a long story short, I left because I no longer feel that we are preaching the truth and the little truth that we do preach, we don't live. I know Erwin will eventually leave Mosaic (Yes you heard it here folks). His plan is to put Eric Bryant in place and take off to become an international speaker/writer/guru/futurist/poet/artist whatever. I think he realizes that Mosaic is not going to be the super mega church that takes down all of los Angeles anytime soon. He already made a name for himself at Mosaic and he might as well parlay that into a lucrative international speaking gig. Write as many book as you like about the same subject. I don't need to read your next new book in 2008 but I can already tell you what it's about. And for the love of Moses, stop pressuring your congregation to buy your book, join a book club, or pass off copies to their co-worker and friends! How can you declare yourself a futurist when you haven't even learned anything from your past? Make right the wrong Erwin. Come clean. You'll feel better.
notorious e.r.i.c.
p.s. let me say something positive so i won't get blasted and everyone who reads this get a warm fuzzy glow.
I use to think that missionary was someone who went to africa or china or some other exotic place on the planet to share the gospel. what I learned from mosaic is that we are all missionarys. it just so happens that my mission field is my neighbors next door or my co-workers. This idea, although simple, blew me away because it was an obvious truth that I never got until I started going to Mosaic
Just a reminder--The truth always comes out. Always. Our God is a just God. Amen. And we support you MOP.
MOP Member,
Did Eric Bryant finally see the light or is this another Eric? Revealing post.
Hi Matt,
Thanks for writing about your meeting with Erwin. I'm not looking for an apology from MOSAIC.
I am looking to meet with Erwin face-to-face and ask him some questions. I appreciate your sentiment and your heart Matt, but no apology is necessary. We all need to stay on "mission" as you have put it. I have said what I need to say, I have tried to contact Erwin many times, emails, voicemails, even snail mail, (written letters). But have not heard from him. I have given it up to God, because I know that none of us can run away from God's Holy Spirit. I have realized that God will take care of everything, BUT I will always speak the Truth about my experiences, and I will always try my best to speak the truth in Love as Scripture commands us in Ephesians.
May God continue to Bless you Matt.
-Frank Loaiza
Amazing how Matt can be so passionate one day, and luke warm or almost cold to the situation the next, huh?
If you have not read his previous comments, "Bible Man" you should compare them to how he came back after "meeting" with Erwin.
We rest our case concerning one-on-one meetings with the McManus.
Maybe, if Matt gave a tiny bit of scripture or some compelling argument why the 180..? But nothing...Matt, Matt..? Are you there?
"Frank Loaiza, I’m sorry that your legitimate concerns were turned into a one-sided point of view taken out of context and turned into a story of how ignorant Christians can be." Matt Shriver
Frank, sometimes its just hard to say sorry from the big guy. He's Erwin McManus. Who do you think you are. Matt can afford to be gracious and humble.
P.S. And Matt with all due respect I don't think Chris should pull your post. That will affect the discussion and leave readers confused. I know you and I don't think you want that. More confusion.
What happened with Matt is the exact reason this site exists. An "individual" attempts to address the problems and he/she comes back with their tail between their legs and more confused than before they met with Erwin.
So wait a minute, Matt. Erwin McManus regularly makes PUBLIC statements, such as the one you referred to earlier concerning the strange shifting of what he studied in college, also, the way he put down First Baptist Church of East LA, but his comments cannot be challenged publicly? How can they be challenged? Privately? Okay, and how can one do that? Let's say he takes a meeting with someone privately (and how easy is that?) what is the outcome? How is this handled? What about all those comments on these pages? Are all these people supposed to come to him privately? Will he take a meeting with all these people? I am confused as to the right way to handle all this. Most of these people don't ever see Erwin or know him well. As far as I am concerned, the biblical way of confronting Erwin became public the moment he began writing books, speaking in public, and hosting conferences.
Ahhh bingo, give that man a prize. Erwin in out of the cocoon now. He is public property. The scripture Matt refers to does not pertain to those of us who don't attend Mosaic. I don't remember having to meet with Ted Haggard after I bashed him in an interview for the L.A. Times. Ok I didn't bash him, and I don't read the Times. But you get my drift. (I feel guilt when I fib)
Just a little update. Matt meets with Erwin and afterwards decides not to post anymore. Erwin tells staff not to read or write on blogs. I know if someone was discussing my pastor and not supporting him and the church on the internet I would be defending him. And if I couldn't defend him, then I walk away. There are 3 possible reasons why some people don't post from Mosaic. 1. There maybe the feeling of inadequacy, not familiar with the debate. 2. Agrees with MOP, but stays at Mosaic for various reasons, i.e. relationships. 3. Erwin sain not to post. Its the third reason that scares me. Who has that type of control? I know there have been these types of leaders in the past. Their ending was never good. Just something to think about
It does not matter if people from Mosaic post. So long as we continue to speak Truth in Love; they will have somewhere to come hear it.
And, remember, Truth sets people free.
To MOP Administrator:
I strongly recommend that you DO NOT REMOVE any of the comments posted by Matt Shriver (including those written by him under a different name.)
To Matt Shriver:
It grieved me to read your latest post.
You wrote a lot of things which I feel need to be openly challenged. I am preparing my own response and in the meantime I hope others will take up that challenge as well.
As to your request to have your commentary removed from MOP:
I have repeatedly warned EVERYONE here at MOP to be extremely careful what you write, especially when using your own name or other identifying moniker. Once published in a public forum, you have effectively surrendered control of those words to others.
Figuratively speaking, unless you are willing to "have your words inscribed in stone for all eternity" DON'T WRITE THEM!!!
Unfortunately for you Matt, your latest post reveals far more than you probably intended and I feel it may prove to be a valuable bit of information in the future.
I will return with a longer response.
Yvonne W.
If you would like to talk to a mopper I'm sure you can give Chris your email(He won't post your request) and I'm sure he'll give that mopper your information. Correct me if I'm wrong Chris? MH
My response:
Matt, you wrote:
I was given the opportunity to meet with Erwin the other night. I was given a chance to strongly voice my concerns and ask difficult questions. This was a challenging conversation that left me exhausted with a mind full of racing thoughts and a heart filled with powerful emotions.
In this statement you are acknowledging that a meeting with Erwin took place and that you asked him several challenging questions. In the very next paragraph you specifically mention two people:
Frank Loiaza:
Frank Loaiza, I’m sorry that your legitimate concerns were turned into a one-sided point of view taken out of context and turned into a story of how ignorant Christians can be.
This sounds very much like an admission that this is exactly what happened. Matt, did Erwin confirm to you that Frank Loaiza is the former member of the Church on Brady whom Erwin has misquoted as having said: “Mosaic is too evangelistic?”
Erwin has repeated this story on many occasions including in front of a live audience at the National Religious Broadcaster’s, Reach 2007. Ken Silva wrote about this at his website, http://www.apprising.org/archives/2007/03/interview_with.html
Robbie Sortino
Robbie Sortino, I want to apologize on behalf of Mosaic for not supporting you more during your time of trouble and for any hurtful words that were spoken of you publicly.
Again, this sounds like another admission. I would like to add that Robbie Sortino was not only subjected to “hurtful words” spoken in public, but was also subjected to “hurtful words” that were PUBLISHED in a nationally recognized Christian publication!
(More to come on that.)
Matt, offering your own apologies for the pain inflicted upon Frank Loiaza and Robbie Sortino may make you feel better, but they are unacceptable substitutes for the apologies that should come from Erwin McManus.
Matt, you used the illustration of the man who was forgiven and then later held accountable due to his own unforgiving spirit to bolster your own argument that the people who expressed their pain here at MOP:
. . . are holding our pain and offences against one another as though there still remains a debt to be paid.
Jesus told the story of this man in Matthew 18:23-35 (NASB):
For this reason, the kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who wished to settle accounts with his slaves. When he had begun to settle them, one who owed him ten thousand talents was brought to him. But since he did not have the means to repay, his lord commanded him to be sold, along with his wife and children and all that he had, and repayment to be made.
So the slave fell to the ground and prostrated himself before him, saying, ‘Have patience with me and I will repay you everything.’
And the lord of that slave felt compassion and released him and forgave him the debt. But that slave went out and found one of his fellow slaves who owed him a hundred danarii; and he seized him saying, ‘Pay back what you owe.’
So his fellow slave fell to the ground and began to plead with him, saying, ‘Have patience with me and I will repay you.’
But he was unwilling and went and threw him in prison until he should pay back what was owed. So when his fellow slaves saw what had happened, they were deeply grieved and came and reported to their lord all that had happened.
Then summoning him, his lord said to him, ‘You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?’
And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him.
My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.
Now that we have the actual, biblical text to refer back to I’d like to address your words. You wrote:
I can honestly say that I have done my best to bring about a forum for MOP to be heard. I want to see peace come out of this situation and will continue to pray to that end. In some strange way I feel a connection with Christ through this all. I put my name and reputation to my beliefs at the risk of losing a lot. Apparently, that relatively small sacrifice has not made any difference. However, the sacrifice that Jesus made for our peace far surpasses anything I will ever give up. And yet, here we are holding our pain and offences against one another as though there still remains a debt to be paid.
This reminds me of the man who was taken before the king with a great debt to be paid. Jesus taught that the man was shown mercy and released with his life and his estate intact. Then, the man went out and saw someone who owed him much less. The man badgered the debtor and took him before the judge who recognized him as the man who was forgiven much. In the end, the man was held responsible for his own debt for not forgiving the small debt that was owed to him.
First of all, Jesus told this parable to illustrate what the kingdom of God is like. Obviously, the king is God and the slaves represent humanity.
Secondly, the forgiven slave wasn’t caught because of his own actions; he was TURNED IN by the other slaves who witnessed his unforgiving actions.
Lastly, Matt; your comment:
. . . here we are holding our pain and offences against one another as though there still remains a debt to be paid,
. . . assumes that the people who have expressed their concerns and/or aired their complaints here at MOP are “unforgiving.” This is a judgemental assumption. How can you know what is in the heart of your fellow brothers and sisters in Christ? Many here have publicly stated that they have “forgiven” Erwin McManus but how does that “exonerate” Erwin McManus of his own wrongdoing? Were the fellow slaves who “snitched” on the unforgiving slave wrong for doing so?
I’m not going to say much about your movie reference simply because it is a work of fiction and not fact. I will say that as an anology, it is a very poor choice that doesn’t fit the situation at hand.
Matt, I can tell by your words that the meeting with Erwin must have been rather stressful for you. That is unfortunate. If you feel you have been in the wrong for participating in these discussions, then that is something you will have to deal with. I still have to disagree with your premise that MOP is an “unbiblical” response to what has happened at Mosaic.
You wrote:
With this in mind, I request that my entries on the Mosaic of Pain blog be deleted. I now believe this is an inappropriate method of seeking resolution and can bring negative impact to the reputation of the children of God and to our Lord. Please honor my request as I now ask God for forgiveness and thus shift the weight of responsibility to those that have the power to leave them or delete them. Please delete this entry as well after suitable time has been given to those that may benefit from reading it.
Exposing the truth can have a “negative impact to the reputation of the children of God and to our Lord,” there are far too many examples of prominent, christian leaders who were exposed for being corrupt and/or immoral and I’m sure that each of those cases had their “negative impact”, but I grateful that the God I serve is more than capable of restoring His own reputation.
I wish I could believe that you wrote these words in good faith Matt, yet I see a rather thinly veiled “dig” hiding in this sentence:
Please honor my request as I now ask God for forgiveness and thus shift the weight of responsibility to those that have the power to leave them or delete them
Sorry Matt, I don’t think the weight of that responsibility is going to be shifted from your shoulders. You have to bear the responsibility for your words.
You wrote:
And to those that might be thinking, “We must speak out in order to prevent others from getting hurt.” I would compare that to a person born blind who supports the use of abortion to prevent anyone else from experiencing the pain of being blind. Listening to music by Jenny Owens and how much she loves God despite her “pain of blindness” just shows how God can use even our most painful hours to be used to His glory and purposes. To me speaking out unbiblically is just as unbiblical as supporting the murder of unborn children.
Matt, substituting a noun for the pronoun “we” in your sentence reveals a fatal flaw in your argument that the premise“We must speak out in order to prevent others from getting hurt,” is somehow equivalent to “a person born blind who supports the use of abortion to prevent anyone else from experiencing the pain of being blind.”
“Crime victims must speak out in order to prevent others from getting hurt.” =
“Crime victims support the use of abortion to prevent anyone else from experiencing the pain of being a victim.’
“Recovering alcoholics must speak out in order to prevent others from getting hurt.” =
“Recovering alcoholics support the use of abortion to prevent anyone else from experiencing the pain of being an alcoholic.”
“Aids patients must speak out in order to prevent others from getting hurt.” =
“Aids patients support the use of abortion to prevent anyone else from experiencing the pain of being an Aids patient.”
Can you see how the two premises don’t fit together?
Then you make this horrific jump in logic:
To me speaking out unbiblically is just as unbiblical as supporting the murder of unborn children.
What! I’m sorry Matt, but that statement really crossed the line.
I have to leave this all behind now. I have to get back to my mission as a follower of Christ (I recommend the movie “The Bridge” as a reality check for us all). If I don’t let this go now, I will look back at my life one day and wonder what happened. I might have to do that already.
If you feel you must leave, then leave.
I, for one, will pass on the movie recommendation. I prefer to use the Bible as my “reality check.”
May God grant you the eyes to see.
Yvonne W.
I have written a new article concerning Robbie Sortino at Solid Foods entitled, "Broken People, Broken Pieces or a Broken Pastor."
http://solidfoods.blogspot.com/2007/09/broken-people-broken-pieces-or-broken.html
Yvonne W.
Yes, Matt met with Erwin. Mr. McManus loves to use movie references...
whewwwww. You mop people sound like you were like leaders of a church or something. You know your bible. Good work Yvonne.
"Why would any pastor choose to publicize the details of such intimate, painful, real life crises experienced by a member of his own staff as an example in an article?"
Because the pastor we are talking about is uncomfortable with the word pastor. He prefers iconoclast or architect. Yvonne, you know how I first found out about Robby and Missy's marital struggles? Seven years ago, when I read about "Sarah and Michael." I was convinced Erwin was referring to Missy when he described "Sarah" even though I never knew Missy was dealing with that issue. So basically Erwin outed Missy. I talked to one person about this at the time but basically kept my mouth shut about it. I always felt it was a gross error on Erwin's part to do this. But as the years have gone by I more think it was an act of willful arrogance and disobedience on the part of Erwin. For shame. But hey, Erwin is culturally relevant so what does it matter. The whole thing makes me sick.
I just read Yvonne's latest. I was first angry and then I calmed down. It reminded me of when Robby returned to Mosaic after the break up of his marriage. Erwin's right hand guy returned to Mosaic. He was humbled. In more ways than one. He lost his wife, church (his staff was fired by you know who) and he returns to a man that he fully didn't support. He was broken. He needed help for his family. He was told by a staffer that someone could talk to his kids, but it was really his responsibility. And Erwin well, he's a busy guy. No time for Robbie. Robbie was on his own. Now that's the cold side of Erwin McManus. Sad part its the not the only story. Maybe its getting clearer why Erwin wants this site shut down.
P.S. Take comfort Robbie even Michael Jordan dissed Scotty Pippen, and Pippen turned out ok.
A Mop Member
This is just such a sad, sad mess...what happened to the days of leaders being leaders. Ones that cared more for their congregation then their own careers and popularity?
: ( S A D
"Some people’s brokenness is obvious. With others, beautiful exteriors have been carefully crafted to hide what no one really wants to see anyway. Sometimes only their eyes betray them. Except when the conversation begins. Then it’s the unsteadiness in their voice, or the almost unnoticeable trembling of their hands."
Excuse me? What leader should EVER rely upon their feelings as to what they believe "betrays" them? Please Body of Christ, do not let this go unchecked. 1 Samuel 16:7
Leaders have far too much position and influence to go off of what they think they see. They have a responsibility to listen to the words they are told and not play games of discerning and guess work.
This is what has caused many problems in cultural evangelism through the centuries.
Let's go with God, not man.
Robbie made the mistake of crossing Erwin. As we have learned, you don't cross Erwin. End of story.
"We probably fought every week for two years, and I can't tell you how many times I wanted to dismiss him just for irritating me."
- Erwin McManus on a relationship with a previous leader of his. -
What? Dismiss someone for "irritating" you?
Nobody would do that, would they?
Its like an onion, just unraveling. Not a pretty sight.
"I was the brand new senior pastor and he was the home-grown youth pastor. Our first year was tense. Here was a young man who had at one time flipped his car out of control on the highway in an attempt to end his life. Every Christmas he would struggle with depression. From his youth Robbie's heart had been filled with violence and anger. The product of divorce, he hardened his heart to survive, and now he needed that heart tender to serve others effectively. He saw anyone who worked for "the institution" as the enemy, and that included me."
Correct me if I'm wrong. But Robbie was in a good place before Erwin became Cultural Architect (We use to call them pastors) I would be very surprised if he saw Erwin as the enemy. Erwin and Robby were voted into ministery the same day. Erwin as lead pastor and Robby as Youth pastor. Robbie was led to Christ by Paul R. Robbie was not perfect, but to say he saw Erwin as the enemy. A little bit of a stretch. This seems to be a problem with a lot of Erwin's writings and oral stories. Ironic thing is that Erwin was the worst thing for Robbie. Erwin did you get permission to write this about your brother in Christ? I know your reading. I ask this because I get the feeling that the people around you are afraid to ask you these types of questions. But not here.
MH
Robbie and I first met at PCC, when he was 18, wild and crazy, kinda' guy.
He was never irritating. He was an 18 year old male! lol
When he stepped into being a Youth Pastor some 4-5 years later at Mosaic, Robbie had become a gentle young man. He was still intense, but he was intense for the things of God. Robbie has never been irritating. Inquisitive and challenging, yes, but never flat out irritating, unless maybe the other person does not like questions and passionate commitment to the things of Christ.
If you have ever met Robbie you will agree.
No wonder a pseudonym was used. We all would have challenged much of what was said had Erwin used Robbie's real name at that time.
It is time that Christian personalities stop "using" the body of Christ for their anecdotes in their books and public discourse.
Who knows how your personal journey with Christ has been "used" by this man, or will be in the future.
em
In response to Yvonne: (my words are in caps...if you don't mind:)
FYI, I CHOSE NOT TO REVEAL ANY OF MY CONVERSATION WITH PASTOR ERWIN IN MY LAST POST AS I THINK IT IS UNETHICAL TO HAVE A SIGNIFICANT CONVERSATION WITH SOMEONE SEEKING RESOLUTION AND THEN TURN AROUND AND SPILL MY GUTS TOPOTENTIALLY THE ENTIRE WORLD. IF MOP HAD HAD MORE CONVERSATIONS IN PERSON, EMAIL, PHONE AND KEPT THESE ACCOUNTS ACCURATE AND PRIVATE, YOU MIGHT HAVE MORE RESOLUTION. SORRY I DIDN'T RETURN PHONE CALLS, BUT IT HAS BEEN A BUSY WEEK.
Matt, you wrote:
I was given the opportunity to meet with Erwin the other night. I was given a chance to strongly voice my concerns and ask difficult questions. This was a challenging conversation that left me exhausted with a mind full of racing thoughts and a heart filled with powerful emotions.
In this statement you are acknowledging that a meeting with Erwin took place and that you asked him several challenging questions. In the very next paragraph you specifically mention two people:
YES I DID.
Frank Loiaza:
Frank Loaiza, I’m sorry that your legitimate concerns were turned into a one-sided point of view taken out of context and turned into a story of how ignorant Christians can be.
SORRY I SPELT YOUR NAME WRONG FRANK!
This sounds very much like an admission that this is exactly what happened. Matt, did Erwin confirm to you that Frank Loaiza is the former member of the Church on Brady whom Erwin has misquoted as having said: “Mosaic is too evangelistic?”
I THINK YOU AND FRANK SHOULD MEET HIM AND ASK HIM YOURSELVES.
Erwin has repeated this story on many occasions including in front of a live audience at the National Religious Broadcaster’s, Reach 2007. Ken Silva wrote about this at his website, http://www.apprising.org/archives/2007/03/interview_with.html
Robbie Sortino
Robbie Sortino, I want to apologize on behalf of Mosaic for not supporting you more during your time of trouble and for any hurtful words that were spoken of you publicly.
Again, this sounds like another admission. I would like to add that Robbie Sortino was not only subjected to “hurtful words” spoken in public, but was also subjected to “hurtful words” that were PUBLISHED in a nationally recognized Christian publication!
(More to come on that.)
Matt, offering your own apologies for the pain inflicted upon Frank Loiaza and Robbie Sortino may make you feel better, but they are unacceptable substitutes for the apologies that should come from Erwin McManus.
WELL, I DID MY BEST TO ARRANGE THAT AND LIKE THEY SAY YOU CAN TAKE A HORSE TO THE WATER...YOU KNOW HOW IT GOES. AND, BTW, I DON'T FEEL MUCH BETTER.
Matt, you used the illustration of the man who was forgiven and then later held accountable due to his own unforgiving spirit to bolster your own argument that the people who expressed their pain here at MOP:
. . . are holding our pain and offences against one another as though there still remains a debt to be paid.
Jesus told the story of this man in Matthew 18:23-35 (NASB):
For this reason, the kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who wished to settle accounts with his slaves. When he had begun to settle them, one who owed him ten thousand talents was brought to him. But since he did not have the means to repay, his lord commanded him to be sold, along with his wife and children and all that he had, and repayment to be made.
So the slave fell to the ground and prostrated himself before him, saying, ‘Have patience with me and I will repay you everything.’
And the lord of that slave felt compassion and released him and forgave him the debt. But that slave went out and found one of his fellow slaves who owed him a hundred danarii; and he seized him saying, ‘Pay back what you owe.’
So his fellow slave fell to the ground and began to plead with him, saying, ‘Have patience with me and I will repay you.’
But he was unwilling and went and threw him in prison until he should pay back what was owed. So when his fellow slaves saw what had happened, they were deeply grieved and came and reported to their lord all that had happened.
Then summoning him, his lord said to him, ‘You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?’
And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him.
My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.
Now that we have the actual, biblical text to refer back to I’d like to address your words. You wrote:
I can honestly say that I have done my best to bring about a forum for MOP to be heard. I want to see peace come out of this situation and will continue to pray to that end. In some strange way I feel a connection with Christ through this all. I put my name and reputation to my beliefs at the risk of losing a lot. Apparently, that relatively small sacrifice has not made any difference. However, the sacrifice that Jesus made for our peace far surpasses anything I will ever give up. And yet, here we are holding our pain and offences against one another as though there still remains a debt to be paid.
This reminds me of the man who was taken before the king with a great debt to be paid. Jesus taught that the man was shown mercy and released with his life and his estate intact. Then, the man went out and saw someone who owed him much less. The man badgered the debtor and took him before the judge who recognized him as the man who was forgiven much. In the end, the man was held responsible for his own debt for not forgiving the small debt that was owed to him.
First of all, Jesus told this parable to illustrate what the kingdom of God is like. Obviously, the king is God and the slaves represent humanity.
Secondly, the forgiven slave wasn’t caught because of his own actions; he was TURNED IN by the other slaves who witnessed his unforgiving actions.
Lastly, Matt; your comment:
. . . here we are holding our pain and offences against one another as though there still remains a debt to be paid,
. . . assumes that the people who have expressed their concerns and/or aired their complaints here at MOP are “unforgiving.” This is a judgemental assumption. How can you know what is in the heart of your fellow brothers and sisters in Christ? Many here have publicly stated that they have “forgiven” Erwin McManus but how does that “exonerate” Erwin McManus of his own wrongdoing? Were the fellow slaves who “snitched” on the unforgiving slave wrong for doing so?
I'M NOT COMPARING MOP TO THE SNITCHING SLAVES BUT RATHER THE ONE THAT IS NOT FORGIVING. YOU ARE TOUGH YVONNE WHEN IT COMES TO GRADING MY PAPER. MAYBE AN A-? YOU GOT ME ON THE SECOND DEBTOR...HE WAS BEGGING FOR FORGIVNESS. I WOULD JUST POINT YOU TO THE LAST SENTENCE OF THE PASSAGE WHICH SEEMS TO BE THE MAJOR POINT JESUS IS MAKING.
ONLY EACH PERSON HERE KNOWS IN THERE HEART IF THEY HAVE TRULY FORGIVEN. BUT WHEN YOU HAVE NINE MONTHS OF BLOGGING ABOUT OFFENCES, ITS A STRETCH TO SAY "WE FORGIVE THE GUY! WE JUST WANT REPENTENCE, RESTITUTION, AND RESIGNATION." WOULD YOU SAY MOST HAVE NOT FORGIVEN?
THERE ARE MANY VERSES THAT ASK US TO FORGIVE OTHERS EVEN WHEN FORGIVENESS IS NOT BEING ASKED FOR,EG. THE LORD'S PRAYER. SCRIPTURE WILL CONTRADICT ITSELF LEFT AND RIGHT IF YOU DON'T TAKE IT INTO CONTEXT WITH THE ENTIRETY OF SCRIPTURE.
I’m not going to say much about your movie reference simply because it is a work of fiction and not fact. I will say that as an anology, it is a very poor choice that doesn’t fit the situation at hand.
IN RELATION TO PASTOR ERWIN AND BROTHER THOM, I THOUGHT IT WAS A GOOD FIT. LIGHTEN UP. I'M NOT WORKING FOR THE LA TIMES:)
Matt, I can tell by your words that the meeting with Erwin must have been rather stressful for you. That is unfortunate. If you feel you have been in the wrong for participating in these discussions, then that is something you will have to deal with. I still have to disagree with your premise that MOP is an “unbiblical” response to what has happened at Mosaic.
You wrote:
With this in mind, I request that my entries on the Mosaic of Pain blog be deleted. I now believe this is an inappropriate method of seeking resolution and can bring negative impact to the reputation of the children of God and to our Lord. Please honor my request as I now ask God for forgiveness and thus shift the weight of responsibility to those that have the power to leave them or delete them. Please delete this entry as well after suitable time has been given to those that may benefit from reading it.
Exposing the truth can have a “negative impact to the reputation of the children of God and to our Lord,” there are far too many examples of prominent, christian leaders who were exposed for being corrupt and/or immoral and I’m sure that each of those cases had their “negative impact”, but I grateful that the God I serve is more than capable of restoring His own reputation.
IN MY CONVERSATION WITH ERWIN IS JUST SEEMS TO ME THAT THERE ARE TWO SIDES TO EVERY STORY, I.E. BRO THOM'S LAST MEETING THAT NEVER HAPPENED. HOW CAN WE SAY THAT THIS EQUATES TO THE SEX AND FINANCIAL SCANDALS THAT HAVE BROUGHT THE NAME OF CHRIST SO MUCH SHAME BY SWAGGERT, BAKKER, TILTON, ETC., ETC.?
SURE, THE LORD "IS CAPABLE OF RESTORING HIS OWN REPUTATION", BUT I'D RATHER SEE HONOR GIVEN TO HIM.
I wish I could believe that you wrote these words in good faith Matt, yet I see a rather thinly veiled “dig” hiding in this sentence:
Please honor my request as I now ask God for forgiveness and thus shift the weight of responsibility to those that have the power to leave them or delete them
Sorry Matt, I don’t think the weight of that responsibility is going to be shifted from your shoulders. You have to bear the responsibility for your words.
A BIG GEIKO CAVEMAN, WHAT????
You wrote:
And to those that might be thinking, “We must speak out in order to prevent others from getting hurt.” I would compare that to a person born blind who supports the use of abortion to prevent anyone else from experiencing the pain of being blind. Listening to music by Jenny Owens and how much she loves God despite her “pain of blindness” just shows how God can use even our most painful hours to be used to His glory and purposes. To me speaking out unbiblically is just as unbiblical as supporting the murder of unborn children.
Matt, substituting a noun for the pronoun “we” in your sentence reveals a fatal flaw in your argument that the premise“We must speak out in order to prevent others from getting hurt,” is somehow equivalent to “a person born blind who supports the use of abortion to prevent anyone else from experiencing the pain of being blind.”
“Crime victims must speak out in order to prevent others from getting hurt.” =
“Crime victims support the use of abortion to prevent anyone else from experiencing the pain of being a victim.’
“Recovering alcoholics must speak out in order to prevent others from getting hurt.” =
“Recovering alcoholics support the use of abortion to prevent anyone else from experiencing the pain of being an alcoholic.”
“Aids patients must speak out in order to prevent others from getting hurt.” =
“Aids patients support the use of abortion to prevent anyone else from experiencing the pain of being an Aids patient.”
Can you see how the two premises don’t fit together?
Then you make this horrific jump in logic:
To me speaking out unbiblically is just as unbiblical as supporting the murder of unborn children.
A FAMOUS PHILOSPHER ONCE SAID, "NOTHING IN THE UNIVERSE CONFORMS STRICTLY TO LOGIC." BUT, FOR YOU I'LL TRY TO MAKE IT LOGICAL: UNSCRIPTURAL=DISOBEDIENCE=SIN
What! I’m sorry Matt, but that statement really crossed the line.
THAT'S WHY I CAME ONTO THIS SITE IN THE FIRST PLACE YVONNE...I'M A LINE CROSSER...
I have to leave this all behind now. I have to get back to my mission as a follower of Christ (I recommend the movie “The Bridge” as a reality check for us all). If I don’t let this go now, I will look back at my life one day and wonder what happened. I might have to do that already.
If you feel you must leave, then leave.
I TRIED TO LEAVE BUT I GUESS ITS EITHER PRIDE AND/OR LOVE THAT KEEPS ME HERE.
I, for one, will pass on the movie recommendation. I prefer to use the Bible as my “reality check.”
WITH ALL DUE RESPECT, I BEG TO DIFFER. I LOVE YOU SIS (EVENTHOUGH I'VE NEVER MET YOU IN PERSON). LOVE ALL YOU MOPPERS AND MOSAIC FOLK!!!
May God grant you the eyes to see.
ME TOO!
MATT
In my first post I wrote back in February:
"I'm curious and would like to humbly to pose this last question: what is the goal or mission statement for Mosaic of Pain? In my opinion that is where the conversation should go next in order to try and predict where this will end up and what the consequences could be."
Well, I should have reminded us before Yvonne's last article, because this is my fear. That people's private lives were going to be hung out to dry.
My suggestion, take it all down before it gets worse!!!
Love,
Matt
IN MY CONVERSATION WITH ERWIN IS JUST SEEMS TO ME THAT THERE ARE TWO SIDES TO EVERY STORY, I.E. BRO THOM'S LAST MEETING THAT NEVER HAPPENED. HOW CAN WE SAY THAT THIS EQUATES TO THE SEX AND FINANCIAL SCANDALS THAT HAVE BROUGHT THE NAME OF CHRIST SO MUCH SHAME BY SWAGGERT, BAKKER, TILTON, ETC., ETC.?
Yes there are two sides to every story about Bro. Tom. Have you bothered to talk to Brother Tom. Why didn't Bro. Tom meet with him? (Hint- His hands were tied) And regarding Yvonne's article, I believe Robbie gave permission. Just another example of Erwin's behavior. Do you support this behavior? It would have been interesting to see a conversation with you Erwin and let's say Robbie and Frank. It won't happen. He would have to admit to some wrong doing. A lot of it
P.S.
Question Matt?? Were you alone in your meeting with Erwin? And welcome back Matt. There's hope for you--:-)
So, where were we? Oh yeah...Yvonne has an incredible article over at, Solid Foods.
Just click on her name in her last comment on this page and it will take you straight to:
Broken People, Broken Pieces or a Broken Pastor?
For the record:
Robbie Sortino gave me permission to post my article at Solid Foods.
In fact, I interviewed him on the telephone for this story and sent him several drafts of the article for his review and approval in order to be ABSOLUTELY SURE that I would not be posting anything that might cause him or his family harm.
I thought I had made this clear by including this disclaimer at the bottom of my post:
(My editorial comments in this post were reviewed and approved by Robbie Sortino.)
I would like to remind everyone that the Christianity Today article, Broken People Can Become Whole Disciples, written by Erwin McManus and copyrighted in 2000 did not extend the same courtesy to the Sortino family.
Yvonne W.
Since when did anyone at Mosaic communicate that they "wanted the whole story"?
e.g. "My suggestion, take it all down before it gets worse!!!"
They just want us all to be quiet and go away.
Anonymous said...
Thought it odd when Pastor Erwin said in a recent sermon that he and Kim were on vacation in Scotland and drove around for two days and hadn't said a word to each other. Kim finally broke the silence by blurting out, "Is this how it's going to be from now on?!?" Then Pastor said his response was, "like what?" Kim, "not talking!" Erwin, "I'm talking to a lot of people [in my head] ie. imagining conversations with great people.
Found it odd that he hadn't talked to Kim for 2 days! I get uncomfortable if I don't talk for 2 hours or less to my wife.
Is the man an eccentric genius or a narsasistic pastor/husband?
Anonymous said...
Remember when Erwin took over as lead pastor? He was supposedly a "Philosophy Major" and then turns out he was Philosophy minor, and Psychology major.
I might be splitting hairs but do you think it was just a successful attempt to inflate his image as a narsassist.
Bibleman
Anonymous said...
Why doesn't Erwin give Holly Quillin the credit she deserves in her role in coauthor of his books? Most other people who have someone write their books for them put their name on the cover as co-author? Someone know the difference in this case?
Bibleman
Anonymous said...
Someone asked recently either here or on another related blog if anyone had read Peppermint Pinatas by Pastor Eric Bryant. I did pick up a copy and have started reading. Really good so far. It is taking back to the basics of being a christian, ie. love my neighbor as myself. Not all this take over the world, follow YOUR dreams and passions, mumbo jumbo.
Does Mosaic need a new lead pastor that helps us refocus on what's really important about following Christ?
Eric has my vote...and has had it for a while.
Bibleman
Anonymous said...
I now strongly recommend to Pastor Erwin to have the meeting with MOP with a third party arbitration. Your legacy is at stake. If you want to be our cultural architect and ikonoclast, I think you need to clear your name here in Los Angeles first. Are you afraid that a credible, objective panel won't see it your way? If they don't, perhaps you shouldn't be our culture's architect.
Respectfully,
Matt Shriver
aka Bibleman
Question Matt--Is Erwin still narsasistic? I believe you gave some good examples. Just a thought
"Dattner also points out that the NPD leader will tend to select and defer to loyal and uncritical staff. Loyalty will be valued far more that truth speaking. The narcissistic pastor will attempt to stack the board, the elders or committees that he has to deal with, with people who he perceives as loyal, no matter how incompetent they may be, particularly if they are seen as one of the special people (the rich, the educated, etc.). He will often try to veto or block anyone who he perceives as challenging to their getting their own way."
- Excerpt from, Narcissism in the Pulpit -
Bibleman's days might be numbered at Mosaic.
I, for one, will pass on the movie recommendation. I prefer to use the Bible as my “reality check.”
WITH ALL DUE RESPECT, I BEG TO DIFFER. I LOVE YOU SIS (EVENTHOUGH I'VE NEVER MET YOU IN PERSON). LOVE ALL YOU MOPPERS AND MOSAIC FOLK!!!
--Matt S.
Matt, a little clarification, the bible schouldn't be used as a "reality check"?
If you feel you must leave, then leave.
I TRIED TO LEAVE BUT I GUESS ITS EITHER PRIDE AND/OR LOVE THAT KEEPS ME HERE. Matt S.
Matt,
Yeah I think its love.
ONLY EACH PERSON HERE KNOWS IN THERE HEART IF THEY HAVE TRULY FORGIVEN. BUT WHEN YOU HAVE NINE MONTHS OF BLOGGING ABOUT OFFENCES, ITS A STRETCH TO SAY "WE FORGIVE THE GUY! WE JUST WANT REPENTENCE, RESTITUTION, AND RESIGNATION." WOULD YOU SAY MOST HAVE NOT FORGIVEN? Matt S.
Matt, once again we are waiting for repentance, restitution, and resignation. And I forgot, did someone ask for forgiveness? Your tug of war in your soul may be God speaking. Maybe, or a bad burrito. Seriously,
you point out all the offenses. Yes that's the point brother. The "Church" needs to be aware. I'm for one offended that you could judge our hearts. You know us Matt. We are dilligent and we speak in love. And we know the truth, at times I wish we didn't. But again as someone pointed out before, we will stand before God and we better have an answer. Why we thought it was convenient to stop? Why we did what others were asked to do, some with gag orders. We better have an answer. I know Erwin want's it stopped. But he just has to do one simple thing, pick up a phone and start making it right. Also, this is way bigger than Mosaic now. This is about others who will be affected by this man. In your words narsasistic.
MH
Matthew 5:24, you asked:
"Question Matt?? Were you alone in your meeting with Erwin? And welcome back Matt. There's hope for you--:-)"
If you reveal your true identity I will take seriously your questions. The claim made on this blog is that there are paid and non-paid staff at Mosaic that are behind this. Well, so far besides Robert Martinez, who has not blogged with his name attached, is the only one from Mosaic that I know of as of late.
What are some of you afraid of by revealing your true identities? I know, I know, "But, we might lose our life long relationships at Mosaic if we do that..." Well, join the club.
As someone made the challenge recently, Man-up Matthew 5:24!
If you reveal your true identity I will take seriously your questions. The claim made on this blog is that there are paid and non-paid staff at Mosaic that are behind this. Well, so far besides Robert Martinez, who has not blogged with his name attached, is the only one from Mosaic that I know of as of late.
Where has anyone claimed that staff and non-paid staff are moppers. I believe what has been said is that there are leaders in the church who support Mop. We know this by our phone calls, emails and when we have run into them. I don't believe its appropriate to share those names. They're free to share their support whenever they choose. And for me, well I know its killing you to know who I am. Just call me Matt. I was a volunteer staffer at Mosaic. I think that will suffice for the time being. You may want to take a look at the scripture again its Matt 5:24.
P.S.
And by the way we moppers have taken SiR, Galations 5, Bibleman, Darth Vader and etc. questions seriously. We didn't demand to know their identity, before we answered simple questions. But I'll greet you when we meet Erwin for that meeting we've been trying to set up.
But we know who you are SiR, Gal 5 and Bibleman. :-)
I have a new name for all of you anonymouses...COWARD!
Matt Shriver
PS. If I sound a little pissed off well I am.
Matt takes it easy. Your starting to scare me. Your cracking up.
A Coward
Matthew 5:24 wrote:
"P.S. A little info for you kids out there in MOP land. MOP members include Pastors, Youth Pastors, Missionaries, Former Missionaries, Life Group directors, where do you think we get our information? How can we all have the wrong story?"
What other church were you referring to when you wrote "life group directors"?
Matt
Matt what is your point? Would you like a list of who supports MOP? I don't think anyone can provide that, even if we knew. Maybe you want me to give you a list of people I know who were leaders of Mosaic and are now Moppers? Some of those people have been identified here. As I recall you were known as Bibleman for awhile. And no one asked your identity or demanded things from you. Where is this attitude coming from? Is this really Matt? Your demanding so much, and your answering so little. I think you protest too much.
P.S. And if you are Matt I think you'll eventually see the coward comment was out of line. Because that was not cool. When did you become so judgemental?
"What other church were you referring to when you wrote "life group directors"? "
I am not 100% sure but I think he means life group directors, zone directors, MPAC leaders, there have been so many name-changes to this title that it's kind of dizzying. If by life group directors he means the person in charge of a group of life group leaders, then yes, there are life group directors who have posted. I was a life group director. And I can think of two others who posted this week (FL and EM). I am posting anonymously because I am not interested in getting a phone call or an e-mail this week from anyone. I simply wanted to encourage you Matt to continue holding your leader accountable. You seem to have been somewhat successful in doing that. At least he had a meeting with you and that is great. He refused to meet with me when I was there and I left the church pretty discouraged about that. This gives me hope that maybe Erwin is changing and listening to his congregation. God bless, bro.
I have gone through all the blogs from beginning to end and from what I gather, there have been a few names that have either been fired or hurt in some way. I have also gone on Erwin McManus.com and read an excerpt from the article Yvonne Martinez refers to in her blog. It seems like Erwin McManus has a strong passion for mending broken people. I am positive that if he felt that he was the source of conflict or hurt he would have in some way called or visited some or all of the following people: Robby Sortino, David Torres, Tom Wolf, Carol Davis, Frank Loaiza, Alex and Amanda Yepiz, Ruben Aguilar, Pablo Tovar, Cris Aguilar, Robert Martinez, Eddie Marshall, and Gerardo Marti. Weren’t most of these people at some point in time leaders of the church? Also, you weren’t only leaders but friends of Erwin? He makes a point in saying that friendship with his leaders is very important. Can any of the above people tell me about the time Erwin McManus called you in the past few years just to see how you were doing? I’m looking forward to your responses.
" I have gone through all the blogs from beginning to end and from what I gather, there have been a few names that have either been fired or hurt in some way. I have also gone on Erwin McManus.com and read an excerpt from the article Yvonne Martinez refers to in her blog. It seems like Erwin McManus has a strong passion for mending broken people. I am positive that if he felt that he was the source of conflict or hurt he would have in some way called or visited some or all of the following people: Robby Sortino, David Torres, Tom Wolf, Carol Davis, Frank Loaiza, Alex and Amanda Yepiz, Ruben Aguilar, Pablo Tovar, Cris Aguilar, Robert Martinez, Eddie Marshall, and Gerardo Marti. Weren’t most of these people at some point in time leaders of the church? Also, you weren’t only leaders but friends of Erwin? He makes a point in saying that friendship with his leaders is very important. Can any of the above people tell me about the time Erwin McManus called you in the past few years just to see how you were doing? I’m looking forward to your responses.
I find it hard to believe that you went through all of the comments. Not that I do not believe you, rather it is difficult to find the full thread of this entire issue. And, I am not sure you would ask the question you did if you had been able to get to them all. That said, I have not been contacted by Erwin concerning my comments here, nor have I spoken with anyone that you listed who has either.
I think what might help you (sorry for more reading) is if you read the article, "Narcissism in the Pulpit". There is a link to it on the front page of this site.
Not everything is as it appears with Mr. McManus.
em
em, if you read Erwin McManus stories you know that he believes in the strength of friendships and the power of healing the broken. So what I am saying is if he believes in these things, then I hope that he has called any of the people that I have listed. I think most of these people were leaders. He would show that he is a man of compassion by following up on this list of people who have been broken. I am waiting to see any replies. If he hasn't called these people maybe he isn't who he says he is.
I would like to point out that I was a share/life group leader for COB and Mosaic. I actually was asked to be a life group director, but chose not to take that position. The reason is not important for this discussion. I bring this point up because this incident led to my departure from Mosaic. I and my wife felt quite alone when we made this decision. I do not blame Erwin. It was just the church culture at the time and it maybe different now, but serving was it. We were no longer in the inner circle. And that was partly our decision, but I personally feel that people should be respected for their decisions. I believe that this could be a time for a congregation to minister to those who take a break from ministry. Serving is important for the vitality of a church, but there are seasons. We found that ministry became everything. It engulfed us. So this with the sermons that we now can pinpoint as emerging, we departed.
Jacob
"em, if you read Erwin McManus stories you know that he believes in the strength of friendships and the power of healing the broken. So what I am saying is if he believes in these things, then I hope that he has called any of the people that I have listed. I think most of these people were leaders. He would show that he is a man of compassion by following up on this list of people who have been broken. I am waiting to see any replies. If he hasn't called these people maybe he isn't who he says he is."
I hear you, and have read/heard many of the stories.
My point is probably best illustrated by quoting from the NPD article:
#7 of ways to identify a narcissist.
7. Devoid of empathy. Is unable or unwilling to identify with or acknowledge the feelings and needs of others.
You're looking in the wrong place. They just don't care, even though their words say they do, their actions speak otherwise.
em
Someone at Mosaic is breaking policy code 956:
Don't write on blogs or read them!
"Someone at Mosaic is breaking policy code 956:
Don't write on blogs or read them!"
Actually, one can read them and write on them, just can't identify oneself when doing so.
You must be thinking of Policy 659.
By the way, I AM NOT A MOSAIC PERSON.
Think about that? You follow the Truth; you're FREE and you attend a church of the one and only Risen Lord, but you can't read a web site that questions the practices of the leaders of that church? And worse yet, you risk being chastised or ostracized if you do.
Something not quite right about that.
Unless I'm hearing it wrong. If I am, maybe some of the Mosaic members that are here reading should correct me.
“It seems like Erwin McManus has a strong passion for mending broken people. I am positive that if he felt that he was the source of conflict or hurt he would have in some way called or visited some or all of the following people: Robby Sortino, David Torres, Tom Wolf, Carol Davis, Frank Loaiza, Alex and Amanda Yepiz, Ruben Aguilar, Pablo Tovar, Cris Aguilar, Robert Martinez, Eddie Marshall, and Gerardo Marti. Weren’t most of these people at some point in time leaders of the church? Also, you weren’t only leaders but friends of Erwin? He makes a point in saying that friendship with his leaders is very important. Can any of the above people tell me about the time Erwin McManus called you in the past few years just to see how you were doing? I’m looking forward to your responses.”
This point was already addressed in the blogs if you read carefully. Plus some of it had been answered on the Myspace MOP that has gone down. Remember, some of the people mentioned here no longer blog, never blogged, or choose not to blog. I’ll attempt to answer what has already been made clear but this post was asked in good faith, I think. Here goes: Robby Sortino—no contact from Erwin. Erwin’s STAFF has called him, but no attempt by Erwin himself. David Torres-no contact by Erwin to say “hi, how are you pal?” But David has left his contact information on the blog. Tom Wolf-no contact by Erwin. Carol Davis-no contact by Erwin. Frank Loaiza-no contact by Erwin. Alex and Amanda Yepiz-no contact by Erwin. Ruben Aguilar-no contact by Erwin but he’s left his contact information on the blog. Pablo Tovar-no contact by Erwin. Cris Aguilar-no contact by Erwin. Robert Martinez-I believe no contact by Erwin. I could be wrong about this, though. Eddie Marshall-no contact by Erwin but he has left his contact information. Gerardo Marti-don’t know. From what I have gathered on the blogs, these are the facts. Broken people brought together in a beautiful mosaic sounds great in theory and sound bites but sometimes things don’t turn out that way. Let’s hope there’s a happy ending to this story.
Erwin has been very consistent.
Driscoll just called out Rob Bell as being emergent. Driscoll trying to distance himself from the movement. It sounds like he's on the right track. The church is cleaning house. We're just not going to take it anymore.
http://christianresearchnetwork.com/?p=3207
Now the question, Is Erwin willing to do the same? Or will he stand by Rob Bell? Good opportunity to finally make it clear where he stands. Emergent or not?
From the NPD article: "Common conspicuous behaviors will include their expectation of special treatment or admiration on their claim that they (a) know important, powerful or famous people, or (b) that they are extraordinarily intelligent or talented. Because of this they will then exude a ‘sense of entitlement’, and will only want to be associated with other special or ‘high-status’ people."
Interesting! Have people considered this in evaluatiing Erwin McManus?
obviously not
Check out the new article at apprising ministries.
THE FETID FRUIT OF ERWIN MCMANUS AND HIS MOSAIC OF HATE
http://www.apprising.org/
Nathan Neighbor has posted a response to Ken Silva:
http://christianresearchnetwork.info/
Yvonne W.
Yvonne,
Yes, Nathan rambles on. I just don't get him. He reminds me of you know who. Also, the website you gave below is not the christianresearch.com site that Ingrid and Ken Silva write on. The site you posted is devoted to criticizing people like John McCarthur, Ken S., Ron F. and Ingrid. You get the feeling that these people don't get it.
Take a look at christianresearch.com
I'm well aware of the fact that christianresearchnetwork.info is not the same as christianresearch.com.
Creating websites with confusingly similar sounding names seems to be a popular tactic among those who defend the emerging/emergent church movement.
I must admit, it is a rather effective tactic for getting noticed on search engines.
Yvonne W.
Interesting how they can go on other sites and defend Erwin's theology (btw, why can't he do that?).
But, nobody can come on here from Mosaic and speak into the accusations made on here about Erwin's mistreatment of people...
What's so great about the emerging way? What's there to defend?
For the record:
http://www.christianresearch.com is not a valid link. It will take you to http://www.domainguruparking.com/
The site Ken Silva contributes to is http://www.christianresearchnetwork.com/
This is where Nathan Neighbor's article, "Am I Missing Something?" and his follow up response to Ken Silva's remarks, "Am I Still Missing Something?" can be found:
http://www.christianresearchnetwork.info/
Yvonne W.
"The Barbarian Way [his book] was, in some sense, trying to create a volatile fuel to get people to step out and act. It's pretty hard to get a whole group of people moving together as individuals who are stepping into a more mystical, faith-oriented, dynamic kind of experience with Christ. So, I think Barbarian Way was my attempt to say, "Look, underneath what looks like invention, innovation and creativity is really a core mysticism that hears from God, and what is fueling this is something really ancient."
Erwin McManus, Interview with Relevant Magazine
Baptist Press has just issued a press for October 2, 2007. Mosaic is to be featured in documentary put out by the NAMB to be aired on ABC affiliates.
http://www.sbcbaptistpress.org/bpnews.asp?ID=17211
In the release, the BP states:
Bernie Hargis, the program's producer and director, suggested individuals consult local listings for airtimes -- or contact their local ABC affiliate.
"They need to ask for it by name, and they need to mention it is part of the Vision and Values series," Hargis said.
Because they usually do not have commercial sponsorship, the programs often air during unsold time slots -- often on Sundays. Stations have offered favorable scheduling in the past in response to viewer interest. "If stations get enough calls, it makes a difference," he said.
Programming information is also available through www.interfaithbroadcasting.com.
Yvonne W.
Ken Silva has a new article; look below. Silva comes out strong on the Emergent Church (not surprisingly), and he now calls the movement a neo-liberal cult. This is strong even for Silva. What do you think? Is the Emergent Church movement a cult? Something to ponder.
http://www.apprising.org/archives/2007/10/erwin_mcmanus_a_4.html
Best definition I ever heard for how to define a cult:
"Any time that ANYTHING is added to Jesus and the Bible; as a requirement for our salvation or righteousness before God."
Those two are all we need to access and become right with God. If any person/group tries to add anything else, it moves into the "cult" arena. I.e.., Book of Mormon, Watch Tower Magazine, a special way to worship or serve God, or anything that attempts to add to the Blood of Jesus for our salvation and God's Word to live out that salvation.
Wow! Never thought of it the way Silva points out. "Cherishing' scripture is not always making it one's "authority" by which he/she lives their lives.
Good definiton. Makes one think...
Not all excited to have Erwin in Ireland. MOP keep up the good work.
http://www.takeheed.net/MANDATE2007ErwinMcManus.htm
For those of you do not understand all of the "Emergent/emerging/liberal etc...of Erwin McManus, don't feel alone. Most important look at the fruits of his ministry. Even if he were a conservative hyper Literalist, the real issue would be what are the fruits of his ministry?
I ask you this, how many other pastors do you know of that have a MOP about them? There are some very serious claims on this site about the "fruits" of the man's ministry.
I was reading this passage this morning and someone came to mind:
There are six things that the Lord hates,seven that are an abomination to him: haughty eyes, a lying tongue,and hands that shed innocent blood, a heart that devises wicked plans,feet that make haste to run to evil,a false witness who breathes out lies,
and one who sows discord among brothers (Proverbs 6:16-19).
Now while a said person has not shed any literal blood, he has definitely drawn blood in a figurative sense. From what we have seen, many of these things seem applicable.
I don't understand how he has demonstrated that he has haughty eyes?
I found this in a pdf promo for the "Lead Like Jesus Now" conference coming up October 19 featuring Kenneth Blanchard and Erwin McManus:
http://www.leadlikejesus.com/clientimages/36749/pdfs/program_guide_200711.pdf
Twelve Steps of EGOs Anonymous
1. I admit I have allowed my pride and fears to negatively impact my role as a Jesus-like leader.
2. I believe that God can transform my leadership motives, thoughts, and actions to be like those modeled by Jesus.
3. I have decided to surrender my leadership efforts to God and to follow the leadership model of Jesus.
4. I will make an inventory of my leadership motives, thoughts, and actions that are inconsistent with Servant Leadership.
5. I admit to God, to myself and to at least one other person the nature of my leadership gaps.
6. I am ready to have God remove all character defects that have created gaps in my leadership.
7. I ask God to remove my shortcomings and to strengthen me against the pride and fear temptations of my EGO.
8. I will list individuals whom I may have harmed by my EGO-driven leadership.
9. I will make direct amends to people I may have harmed by my EGO-driven leadership, unless doing so would injure them or others.
10. I will continue to take personal inventory regarding my leadership role; and when I am wrong I will promptly admit it and apologize.
11. By practicing the disciplines of solitude, prayer, and the study of Scriptures, I will seek to practice Servant Leadership as modeled by Jesus.
12. I will carry the message of Leading Like Jesus to other leaders and will practice the Lead Like Jesus principles in all of my relationships.
Just read Broken Pieces... by Yvonne. Interesting quote from Erwin regarding Robbie:
"...Yet today he is one of my greatest friends and there are few people I trust as much.I don't know anyone who works so hard to serve others..."
I guess Robbie's off the Christmas list this year.
Yvonne,
Ken Blanchard is a big time new ager. What's Erwin doing with him? MOsaic members uhhh wake up? What is going on? Are you kidding me?
I find it highly disconcerting that a conference would have Erwin McManus as one of their key speakers. Especially if you take into consideration their ninth step:
9. "I will make direct amends to people I may have harmed by my EGO-driven leadership, unless doing so would injure them or others."
Note the use of the word may, meaning they expect the leader/attender to at least investigate and consider the possibility, something that Mr. McManus seems incapable of doing. Yet he is one of the KEY speakers?
I encourage everyone who has ever posted here, and wants to see some modicum of justice, write an e-mail to the organizers of this event. And, send an e-mail to the publisher that handles the book the conference is based upon.
The idea and concept of leaders leading like Jesus is a great one. As a matter of fact, that is what MOP is all about!
Go here: http://leadlikejesus.com
Click "Contact us".
Some may be saying what is Blanchard doing with McManus!
"Lead Like Jesus" - if you believe that Erwin McManus is one of the LAST leaders in the church today modeling Jesus like leadership, then e-mail your concerns/objections to McManus being one of the Key Speakers at a conference that espouses "Servant Leaders". A good thing, but is he the man to model and teach it?
E-mail the conference leaders at:
doug@renewalproject.org
joy@renewalproject.org
Emailed them. MH
Re things Emergent: Mark Driscoll ("Mark the cussing pastor" in the book "Blue Like Jazz") has been distancing himself for several years now from many key leaders of the Emergent movement, of which he was once a part. He delivered a message a couple weeks ago at a conference held by Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary. He still has a lot of rough edges, and hasn't come around on Erwin as yet, but his message is worth the listen.
http://snipurl.com/1rz13
anyone else concerned enough to drop an e-mail to "Lead Like Jesus"?
There is a new post at Solid Foods regarding Erwin and his upcoming "interview" on Sky Radio.
http://solidfoods.blogspot.com/2007/10/erwin-mcmanus-sky-high-audience.html
Yvonne
Yvonne has a good one up on Solid Foods. I just can't believe Erwin would be self-promoting. Just Kiddin MH
I like that "Lead Like Jesus" list. I think we can all try to lead like Jesus. And Erwin its never to late to Lead Like Jesus. Its never too late to make amends.
I guess love is never having to say your sorry.
When MOP breathes its last breathe will it go to heaven or hell?
Its all up to Mr. McManus. Can't wait to bury it. Some out there are probably questioning, Why is this guy so stubborn? Well ya gotta know him to believe it. And all Moppers go to heaven. That's what I'm told.
Have you guys seen this?
http://www.takeheed.net/ErwinMcManus_CFC.htm
I find it quite interesting.
-Frank Loaiza
Okay, now you have my attention on the "Emergent" issue.
"The New Missiology—Keep Your Own Religion, Just Add Jesus
The new missiology says three things:
1. You can keep your own religion — Buddhism, Islam, Hinduism, Mormonism — you just need to add Jesus to the equation. Then you become complete. You become a Buddhist with Jesus, a Hindu with Jesus, a Muslim with Jesus and so on.
2. You can throw out the term Christianity and still be a follower of Jesus.
3. In fact, you can throw out the term Christian too. In some countries you could be persecuted for calling yourself a Christian, and there is no need for that. Just ask Jesus into your heart, you don't have to identify yourself as a Christian."
That is a quote from a web site that features Erwin McManus and some of his books.
http://www.lighthousetrailsresearch.com/newmissiology.htm
http://www.lighthousetrailsresearch.com/erwinmcmanus.htm
This is NOT "new missiology" - this is old syncretism.
EM
Yes Frank I've emaied the gentleman from Ireland. He is aware of MOP and they were getting ready for the McManus train of 2007. Thanks to this site. The world is warned. MH
My bad. I was under the impression on a cursory glance that the web site [http://www.lighthousetrailsresearch.com/newmissiology.htm] was supporting "New Missiology", when in fact they are attempting to expose it.
I am not sure that McManus would ascribe to what that web site is saying, would he?
EM
Amen Vernon!
"Canadian minister John Gladstone has made a compelling application of a sad episode in the life of Isaac Watts. That famous English hymnwriter fell in love with a beautiful young woman, Elizabeth Singer. She admired his poetry, his mind, and his spirit, but for all her admiration she could not overcome her revulsion at his appearance.
Isaac was short and slight, afflicted with mere slits of gray eyes, a hook nose, and large cheekbones. When he proposed to Elizabeth, she all too hurtfully replied, "Mr. Watts, if only I could say that I admire the casket [jewelry box] as much as I admire the jewel it contains."
Gladstone draws a disturbing analogy between the "jewel" of the gospel and the "casket" of the church. How many people have rejected the good news because of its often sincere yet overly zealous witnesses! Are we unknowingly repulsive and unloving? How can we be "a guide to the blind, a light to those who are in darkness" (Rom. 2:19) if the beauty of Jesus cannot be seen in us?
By every means possible, let’s proclaim the gospel. But let’s pray that the Holy Spirit will make us personally winsome and loving and free from sin so that we can attract others to Him."
- Vernon C Grounds
So I take it that V. Grounds is not emerging?
Remember this oldie but goodie, "The chief sin of the church is ignorance of the word of God." J. Vernon McGee
(I thought the greatest danger to the church was Christians?)
I don't think this McGee was Emerging? Do you? Still relavent?(McGee can still be heard around the country in over 400 radio stations, he died in 1988)
MH
""You can begin to be the light of the world where you are planted," said Ken Blanchard as he and co-host Erwin Raphael McManus brought Lead Like Jesus Now: The Leadership Revolution! simulcast to a close Friday, Oct. 19."
Shame on you Ken Blanchard. You knew the truth but chose to go ahead and use a co-host that does NOT "Lead Like Jesus".
But then again, not sure if you really know what that means yourself, either.
"Ken demonstrated servant leadership when he stooped to wipe his co-host's shoes with a small white shoe mitt. Attendees then bent down to find mitts beneath their own pews and followed suit. They exchanged hugs before each moved on to another person."
True Jesus like leadership requires one get a little dirty when they deal with real life. Not just polish their co-hosts $200 Armanis.
Jesus only used metaphor to illustrate something he was already in the process of doing literally, or was going to do eventually. E.G., "This is My body broken for you." He was crucified shortly there after.
"Ken demonstrated servant leadership when he stooped to wipe his co-host's shoes with a small white shoe mitt. Attendees then bent down to find mitts beneath their own pews and followed suit. They exchanged hugs before each moved on to another person."
Not to be too glib here, but does that mean they are all going to be Shoe Shines sometime soon?
To Shine Or Not to Shine That is The Question???
Let it be. You all praise the man whose marriage failed? The article posted by Yvonne is so wrong. We all know who you are talking about when you put the * there. I hope you don't get a lawsuit. I am almost tempted to fwd the article to the one who didn't approve it... As for the Sortino family- who are you refering to? It is broken and no one is doing anything about it. You are all being suckered into unnecessary drama. Leave Mosaic alone, if it fails, it will fail on its own- Just like Robby's church.
"Let it be. You all praise the man whose marriage failed? The article posted by Yvonne is so wrong. We all know who you are talking about when you put the * there. I hope you don't get a lawsuit. I am almost tempted to fwd the article to the one who didn't approve it... As for the Sortino family- who are you refering to? It is broken and no one is doing anything about it. You are all being suckered into unnecessary drama. Leave Mosaic alone, if it fails, it will fail on its own- Just like Robby's church.
October 28, 2007 11:46 PM"
First, you are not very articulate, but I will attempt to follow what you are saying.
MOP does not "praise" anyone. And, your argument that just because someone's marriage fails should disqualify them from speaking up is ridiculous. Not sure what you are talking about concerning the "*".
Lawsuit? For what, speaking truth.
As for Mosaic failing, nobody wants that. We want justice when it comes to leaders that refuse to deal with wrongs.
And, just for the record, Robbie's church did not fail, it was killed. Think about it, how can there be two "Pasadena Mosaics"?
That's an interesting quote from Erwin about adding Jesus to anyone's lives and they become complete. I had come to a similar conclusion myself.
I'm not sure how you disagreed with that Eddie.
His quote said that you can add Jesus and not have to add the term Christianity. I think his point is that there is nothing special about the term Christianity. There is nothing in the rituals that we perform in Christianity that make us "saved." There is only the adding Jesus part that makes the difference. Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved.
Think about it like this:
If you are a Buddhist you think that we need to detach ourselves from this physical world. That is what Christians are supposed to do also, (Die to ourselves). The difference is that Buddhists do it actually thinking that they can achieve this on their own. If they add Jesus: this would change their motivation. They would keep the same lifestyle (trying to detach themselves from the physical world, but they would do it realizing that they can never do it on their own, and also realizing that it doesn't matter anyway because Jesus understands we can't do it on our own, that is why he died for us. What a revelation if a Buddhist added Jesus! He would be set free!
What about with a Muslim? Muslims think that the whole point of life is to submit to the will of God. Sounds pretty good. Only that they are looking for God's will in the wrong place. If they kept the submitting to God's will part, and added that God's will is to believe that Jesus is the only way to go to heaven, that would change everything for them! Now they would seek God's will through a relationship with Jesus, rather than through the Koran.
Can a Jew become a Christian? Of course! That's what the New Testament is for.
What if Jesus had been born a Buddhist? What if God, before any of the Moses stuff, had chose to come through the line of the Asians and not through the Jews? Would that be sacriledge? Of course not! That's just how it would have been. Saying that there is something special about the Jews is missing the point. It turned out there was nothing special or different about them than everyone else, including the Buddhists. The Jews were missing something as well: Jesus. Can a Jew still be a Jew and add Jesus? Ever heard of Jews for Jesus?
The point is that titles are meaningless. You are a Christian, a Muslim, a Jew, a Buddhist, o.k., but are you a true believer in Jesus? I know a lot of "Christians" that aren't. Rather than saying Buddhists can't be believers in Jesus, think, what if a Buddhist did become a believer in Jesus! As soon as you accept Jesus, your goal is then to realize that he is all you need. Not a ritual, not a term, etc.
It seems like that this is really the only objection to Erwin's point: is it right for the people of other religions, once they have accepted Jesus, to keep their old TERM, or do they have to accept the new term, CHRISTIAN, in order to be saved. A Christian, Buddhist, Muslim, Jew, etc. once they accept Jesus, realizes that his goal is to die to himself and follow him. It logically follows that if he doesn't do this, he is not doing what Jesus wants him to, whether Buddhist, Muslim, Jew, and yes even Christian.
(Please when responding, keep in mind to only argue using the philsophies that the religions are based on, not the man made parts that have given ALL religions a bad name, including Christianity).
"And, your argument that just because someone's marriage fails should disqualify them from speaking up is ridiculous."
"Just because" someones marriage failed... yeah, that little boo-boo.
Who's lax on sin, you or Erwin?
Actually, Scripture does pretty plainly state that if someone can't keep their own marriage or house together, they have no place trying to lead in the church.
"If anyone does not know how to manage his own family, how can he take care of God's church?" 1 tim. 3:5
This isnt' just to pastors, it says: ANYONE.
of coruse, typical church gossip on this site: You all are afraid to put your names with your comments. Words don't carry weight when spoken by cowards.
"of coruse, typical church gossip on this site: You all are afraid to put your names with your comments. Words don't carry weight when spoken by cowards."
Thank you for sharing with the class Mister . . . Mister . . .? Or is it Miss? ... Mrs? ... Ms perhaps? . . . Hmm. Seems like someone is afraid to put their name with their comments. Well, we will do you the honor of accepting the logic you employed here and give no weight to your words.
"typical church gossip on this site"
you can't be serious. I guess the way Erwin gossiped several missionaries out of the church is okay. I guess the way Erwin gossiped Gerardo out of the church before firing him is okay, too. I guess gossip is fine with you as long as it is being uttered by spiritual iconoclasts and cultural architects.
That's an interesting quote from Erwin about adding Jesus to anyone's lives and they become complete. I had come to a similar conclusion myself.
I'm not sure how you disagreed with that Eddie.
[I will reply within the brackets - like these.]
His quote said that you can add Jesus and not have to add the term Christianity. I think his point is that there is nothing special about the term Christianity. There is nothing in the rituals that we perform in Christianity that make us "saved." There is only the adding Jesus part that makes the difference. Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved.
[I rarely, if ever call myself a "Christian", simply because of the baggage that carries with it these days, but I do not hate or want to destroy Christianity, nor am I ashamed of being a "Christian".]
Think about it like this:
If you are a Buddhist you think that we need to detach ourselves from this physical world. That is what Christians are supposed to do also, (Die to ourselves). The difference is that Buddhists do it actually thinking that they can achieve this on their own. If they add Jesus: this would change their motivation. They would keep the same lifestyle (trying to detach themselves from the physical world, but they would do it realizing that they can never do it on their own, and also realizing that it doesn't matter anyway because Jesus understands we can't do it on our own, that is why he died for us. What a revelation if a Buddhist added Jesus! He would be set free!
[Buddhism is a spin off of Hinduism, and they both incorporate Jesus into their religion and practices. Many Hindus have pictures of Jesus on their wall. The problem here is the syncrotism that develops in the society and cultures when we as Believers in Jesus allow an embracing of God's Son without a full explanation of what that really means. May I quote God here?
Exodus 20:3
"You shall have no other gods before me."
There are places in the world (for safety sake) where God will speak through His Spirit and give peace to the new Believer to not call themselves, "Christians" but that is for God to say, not us. I don't know about you, but it cost a rather large amount for me to become a Christian at 26. I lost many friends, some because I was not mature enough to understand my faith, others because they just didn't want to see the contrast of my new life with their old ones.]
What about with a Muslim? Muslims think that the whole point of life is to submit to the will of God. Sounds pretty good. Only that they are looking for God's will in the wrong place. If they kept the submitting to God's will part, and added that God's will is to believe that Jesus is the only way to go to heaven, that would change everything for them! Now they would seek God's will through a relationship with Jesus, rather than through the Koran.
[Jesus is mentioned in the Koran as one of the Profits of Allah. They already have him, but missed the point.]
Can a Jew become a Christian? Of course! That's what the New Testament is for.
[Actually, those of us who follow Jesus and believe in the Bible are Judeo-Christians. Meaning, we embrace and believe both the Old and New Testaments. Thank God - literally here - that He sent Jesus to fulfill all the requirements of the Old one!]
What if Jesus had been born a Buddhist? What if God, before any of the Moses stuff, had chose to come through the line of the Asians and not through the Jews? Would that be sacriledge? Of course not! That's just how it would have been. Saying that there is something special about the Jews is missing the point. It turned out there was nothing special or different about them than everyone else, including the Buddhists. The Jews were missing something as well: Jesus. Can a Jew still be a Jew and add Jesus? Ever heard of Jews for Jesus?
[You'll have to argue this one with God, he made the choices. He chose the Jews as His people. He decided to allow Abraham to sleep with Sarah's maid servant and thus came Ishmael, from which the Muslims were born into slavery. Concerning Jews for Jesus...all of the first Christians, and Jesus himself are Jews.]
The point is that titles are meaningless. You are a Christian, a Muslim, a Jew, a Buddhist, o.k., but are you a true believer in Jesus? I know a lot of "Christians" that aren't. Rather than saying Buddhists can't be believers in Jesus, think, what if a Buddhist did become a believer in Jesus! As soon as you accept Jesus, your goal is then to realize that he is all you need. Not a ritual, not a term, etc.
[You pointed out that you know "Christians" that are not true believers, I agree with that observation. Just the same, many who call themselves any type of religion can say they are also a Christian, may not be, only God can know our hearts. The concern is the confusion that leaders create with the lost when, they say things like, "He believes that the Gospel message has been made irrelevant by Christian speak, or Christianese and consequently, that Christians have "lost touch with reality." This is an easy way to be controversial and get one's name out there, but at what cost?]
It seems like that this is really the only objection to Erwin's point: is it right for the people of other religions, once they have accepted Jesus, to keep their old TERM, or do they have to accept the new term, CHRISTIAN, in order to be saved. A Christian, Buddhist, Muslim, Jew, etc. once they accept Jesus, realizes that his goal is to die to himself and follow him. It logically follows that if he doesn't do this, he is not doing what Jesus wants him to, whether Buddhist, Muslim, Jew, and yes even Christian.
[Bottom line, has the person trusted their eternal existence to Jesus and his provision for their souls? I'm not hung up on titles or names, either. As you pointed out, many that call themselves Christians, really in the end might not be.
My real concern here is that Mosaic and its leaders are becoming a church that does not demonstrate the love of Christ. There is far too much talk about relevance and titles, while there is a large number of people saying, "Excuse me, your leader has been less than respectful of myself and/or others."
It just surprises me how Mosaic can continue to ignore the following passage from the Bible:
Matthew 5:23,24
"Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you, leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to your brother; then come and offer your gift."]
Eddie M
(Please when responding, keep in mind to only argue using the philsophies that the religions are based on, not the man made parts that have given ALL religions a bad name, including Christianity).
October 30, 2007 9:45 AM
Anonymous said...
Dear Anonymous,
You wrote:
"You all are afraid to put your names with your comments. Words don't carry weight when spoken by cowards."
Hmmm, there are over 20 or so posters putting their entire names up here.
Yet, you are posting "Anonymous". That is why your comments do not carry any weight here.
To Annonymous and others at Mosaic who write on this site,
Why the ugliness? Instead of trying to look down on Robbie or any other Mop member, maybe you and others at Mosaic should go back and look at the many questions raised here. No one seems to want to address the serious allegations that have been presented on this site. And yes Robbie had a failed marriage. God is not finished with him yet. Even if Mosaic is. Remember, Robbie, Eddie, Frank, Ruben and the rest of the MOP crew are not public figures. They have not written books that have theological holes. They have not said things like "the greatest enemy to the movement of Jesus Christ is Christianity." However some of them have been talked about incorrectly in public. Some of them have been discarded. Some of them have been lied to. This site may upset you because of your love for Erwin. But many of us write because we love him as well. We just want to see wrong made right. Also others should be warned. We only quote and write what the man has said. If you don't like it. Talk to the man.
J. Aguilar
Let it be. You all praise the man whose marriage failed? The article posted by Yvonne is so wrong. We all know who you are talking about when you put the * there. I hope you don't get a lawsuit. I am almost tempted to fwd the article to the one who didn't approve it... As for the Sortino family- who are you refering to? It is broken and no one is doing anything about it. You are all being suckered into unnecessary drama. Leave Mosaic alone, if it fails, it will fail on its own- Just like Robby's church.
---The above quote from the church that keeps on giving. (Not love)
---Lawsuit. Not another threat. You may have tried to shutup leaders of the past with lawsuits. But not this blog. The truth will set us free. Not your threats.
--Who wants Mosaic to fail. Go back to the mission statement.
---Robbie's church failed. Uhhh some more revisionist history going on here. (PSSS he stepped down and then the firings commenced.)
---What is love? Baby don't hurt me, don't hurt me no more. Haddaway MH
Have you thought that maybe annonymous won't give his/her name because he doesn't want to get in trouble with EM. Leaders at Mosaic don't have the freedom to write on this site like MOP members. Keep that in mind. So maybe the annonymous comments are understood.
EM,
You cited lighthouse publishing. I would be careful concerning drawing any quotes from them.
Recently Lighthouse had some pretty outrageous quotes from Rick Warren.
So I decided to check them out. Turns out, Rick did say what they claimed he did. They took a statement from page 126 of PDC and then combined it with a new statement on 127 and then capped it with words that weren’t even in the book (they were just added). And, of course, skipping/adding was not noted, it was all put in a single block of "quotes." So it looked like one statement.
The very nature of God is "Truth." He doesn't alter anything to make his case. (1 John 5:6)
When I asked Lighthouse why they misrepresented what Rick actually stated, I received a response that said what they were doing was within the proper bounds of journalism.
I found that interesting. Their appeal was not to "truth" but to the world of journalism. Believers rise to a higher standard.
I did not reference the quotes about Erwin. For a “research” project, their methods are questionable. They have an agenda, and are willing to rework quotes in order to fulfill that agenda.
Pastor David,
Thank you for your participation in these discussions, it is always a pleasure to see someone who is willing to "put their reputation where their mouth is," instead of posting under the protection of anonymity.
Before I go on, I would like to clarify a minor point just to be sure we don't involve any innocents parties:
"Lighthouse Publishing" and
"Lighthouse TRAILS Research"
Are not the same entity. The first is a small publishing house (in fact, there may be more than one such independent publishing house using a similar name) while the second is an on-line, discernment ministry. I believe both you and EM were referring to the latter.
I fully agree with you that a "cut and paste" approach to citing "quotes" from well-known individuals is unethical and in some cases, deceptive, when the resulting mish mash misrepresents what the person actually believes. If this is indeed what Lighthouse Trails Research did in quoting Rick Warren, then shame on them.
I personally know EM and I believe he was sincere in his attempt to add an outside citation to his comments here at MOP. I don't think he meant to knowingly use a questionable source and only took Lighthouse Trails at face value, that is not an unreasonable thing for the average person to do. In the future though, I know that I will be far more careful in citing such sources without first conducting a background check.
I thank you for the warning about Lighthouse Trails.
This site however is not about Rick Warren but about Erwin McManus.
If you will take the time to read through this entire site you will see that it was started by former leaders, missionaries (of which EM is one) and other ex-members of Erwin McManus' church Mosaic.
Unlike Lighthouse Trails Research, MOP is written by people who have worked with Erwin McManus and have experienced his "leadership style" for themselves.
Keep this in mind as well, Erwin himself has cited the names of many of these same people in his own published works and/or in his remarks from the stage.
Yvonne W.
David,
Yes, I posted the following, correcting my earlier posting:
"October 20, 2007 10:12 PM
My bad. I was under the impression on a cursory glance that the web site [http://www.lighthousetrailsresearch.com/newmissiology.htm] was supporting "New Missiology", when in fact they are attempting to expose it.
I am not sure that McManus would ascribe to what that web site is saying, would he?
EM"
Meaning, I did not believe that Erwin McManus would say what Lighthouse was inferring he said.
The response you received from them, "...what they were doing is within the bounds of journalism." sounds like Mosaic type of reasoning however.
Guess the shoes on the other foot, even though I do not agree with that type of Christianity, either.
Oooops, used the "C" word, not sure what to say, here? Umhh, "People who don't like bad things."? Errrh, how about, "People who are not Buddhist, Islam, Hindu, Jewish, guess what we are...people?"
Anyway, I agree with you, let's stick with the Truth.
"They will know us by our love for one another."
"Deceitful are the kisses of an enemy, faithful are the wounds of a friend."
We're trying to be your friends here Mosaic.
EM
"And, your argument that just because someone's marriage fails should disqualify them from speaking up is ridiculous."
"Just because" someones marriage failed... yeah, that little boo-boo.
- Thank you for that back up.
-I don't think he should keep quiet. All I am trying point out is that when a man fails God (in his marriage), he needs to examine himself. If the church was killed, it was done by Robby.
-Keep in mind that all this surfaced shortly after Pasadena Mosaic was "destroyed".
-I pray that you all come to terms with what is "right" and loving. That you all will look at what really is going on. Watch those demons, because they will really eat you up!
-Pray for Robby and his family, his marriage; for Erwin and the church, for leaders, staff, members and for the all the people who have been and continue to be hurt that the Bride of Christ is being tortured.
Hello,
There seems to be a lot of concerns posted on this site. Is there away to synthesize these valid and important concerns. Going through all the documents is daunting.Helpful but daunting. Thank You
Anonymous said...
Hello,
There seems to be a lot of concerns posted on this site. Is there away to synthesize these valid and important concerns. Going through all the documents is daunting.Helpful but daunting. Thank You
November 5, 2007 9:19 AM
This is good idea!
Yvonne W.
"If the church was killed, it was done by Robby." Annonymous
---There you guys go again. Why do you revise the past. Simple, Robby resigns. Erwin fires staff closes church. Not too dificult. Be careful with that twisting stuff. This is getting a bit scarrey.
---And why the anger towards Robby. He's not the one who's fabricated stories. He's not the one who's fired people. He's not the one who belongs to the emerging movement. He's not the one who took money for a building and then spent it else where. He hasn't revised history. Yes Robby has a broken marriage. But your pushing the discussion away from the man who has caused a lot of pain.
---And you can be part of the solution. Have you asked Mr. McManus to address some of these issues? He knows he wronged people. Maybe you should ask him to make it right. Not too difficult. You can help in stopping the "Bride of the Church" from being tortured. But what we have experienced here are people as yourself. Diverting attention. Shame on you. Stop that now. MH
Yvonne and EM,
thank you very much for your responses. I did confuse the two "lighthouse" groups. I corrosponded with a woman named Debroah Dombroski (sp).
I have looked through the site and understand it is about Church on Brady/Mosaic. Dr. Wolf was a seminary professor when I attended Brea.
I was confused on on thing (and I mean to stir nothing by asking...): Was an offering taken for the specific purpose of building... and then no building was built? Or was I confused.
Thanks
Pastor David,
I wrote about the church fund at my own blog Solid Foods under the title: A Revisionist History of the Church on Brady?
http://solidfoods.blogspot.com/2007_03_11_archive.html
I was a member of the Church on Brady while Brother Tom was the pastor. I was a part of the volunteer labor force for the first church building project (that building is still in existence.)
When our congregation once again outgrew our facilities and there was no more space on the existing lot for expansion, we began a new campaign to raise money to purchase another, larger, property. I attended the fundraising campaign held at Union Station here in Los Angeles on June 27, 1997. It was called "Believing the Impossible." At that time, Erwin McManus was our new pastor. It is the funds collected for this project that are under dispute, especially since Erwin McManus has made several contradictory statements regarding the congregation's intent to purchase a new building.
My father, Pastor Robert Martinez, was ordained by Brother Tom and served at the Church on Brady/Mosaic for a little more than 25 years. For most of those, he was the chief financial officer. My father was "asked" to retire in 2006 by Erwin McManus and did so effective January 2007. No plausible explanation has ever been given for my father's forced retirement. DO NOT BELIEVE the rumors that my father retired "voluntarily!" His job at the church was his primary source of income and when he was asked to leave, my step-mother (the secondary source of their household's income) was told she no longer had a job either.
Pastor David, I hope you can see why this site has become such a painful necessity. The leadership of Mosaic has deliberately chosen to ignore or dismiss any complaints made against Erwin McManus. Many of the posters here have tried repeatedly to follow the biblical model for resolving conflict within the church but to no avail. MOP exists as a voice for those who have been affected by the fall out from the ministry of Erwin McManus.
I can only speak for myself when I say that I am looking forward to the day when this site is no longer needed.
Yvonne W. (Nee Martinez)
Yvonne,
Please excuse my ignorance. I understood that Mosaic was lead by a group of elders and that the pastor was simply the "teaching elder." (or that's what Thom taught us...?)
Pastor David,
I have touched on that issue as well at Solid Foods. Not all of the elders have been in agreement with the things Erwin McManus does, in fact; the entire eldership resigned from their positions on the board of Erwin's "non-profit" organization Awaken International back in 2003. They did this to avoid the potential for personal liability when the required financial information needed to complete state filings were not provided to them on time. The registered corporation, "Awaken International" which lists Erwin McManus as it's Agent for Service of Process is currently listed under a suspended status with the California Business Portal.
You can check this for yourself by visiting:
http://kepler.ss.ca.gov/list.html.
This isn't the only Erwin McManus related California corporation listed as suspended, there is also Awaken Center for Creativity.
At one, Mosaic, L.A. was also under a suspended status but this has apparently been cleared up.
Yvonne W.
"Pastor David, I hope you can see why this site has become such a painful necessity. The leadership of Mosaic has deliberately chosen to ignore or dismiss any complaints made against Erwin McManus. Many of the posters here have tried repeatedly to follow the biblical model for resolving conflict within the church but to no avail. MOP exists as a voice for those who have been affected by the fall out from the ministry of Erwin McManus.
I can only speak for myself when I say that I am looking forward to the day when this site is no longer needed."
A M E N ! ! !
Eddie Marshall
“If only 10% of the world’s population had [holiness],” C. S. Lewis mused, “would not the whole world be converted and happy before year’s end?”
Mosaic, walk your talk...
1 Timothy 5:19,20
Do not entertain an accusation against an elder unless it is brought by two or three witnesses. Those who sin are to be rebuked publicly, so that the others may take warning.
GO MOP
I have personally heard Erwin dismiss older Believers as being "dead weight", "difficult" or "more trouble then they are worth".
God uses all of us in His way.
"God has limitless ways of reaching people. So if you feel that you don’t have the ability to reach others for Christ, think about 76-year-old Ethel Hatfield. Desiring to serve her Lord, she asked her pastor if she could teach a Sunday school class. He informed her that he thought she was too old! She went home heavy-hearted and disappointed.
Then one day as Ethel was tending her rose garden, a Chinese student from the nearby university stopped to comment on the beauty of her flowers. She invited him in for a cup of tea. As they talked together, she had the opportunity to tell him about Jesus and His love. He returned the next day with another student, and that was the beginning of Ethel’s ministry.
Ethel was delighted to share the gospel of Christ with these students, because she knew He has the power to change lives. His gospel “is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes” (Rom. 1:16).
Precisely because of Ethel’s age, Chinese students listened to her with respect and appreciation. When she died, a group of 70 Chinese believers sat together at her funeral. They had been won to Christ by a woman who was thought to be too old to teach a Sunday school class!"—Vernon C Grounds
em
Hello All,
I just came across this interesting series of articles on the Emerging Church Movement at
Power to Stand
http://www.powertostand.org/
In this particular article by Pastor Steve Mithcell
"Putting the "EC" in CE National Part II"
http://www.powertostand.org/ec2.htm
Pastor Mitchell mentions Erwin McManus.
I know that Pastor Mitchell cites Lighthouse Trails Research (whose methodology has been called into question lately) but he has plenty of other references too
Any comments on this article?
Yvonne W.
I have two new posts up at Solid Foods http://solidfoods.blogspot.com/
I thought people here might be interested in the newest one regarding some enlighting emails I received from Ireland about Inland Community Church.
Yvonne W.
Yvonne,
Thanks for your steadfast work with MOP and Solid Foods. A reader
Yes, thanks Yvonne, Chris and others.
A concerned reader.
Can anyone explain to me why Mosaic (Soul Cravings) has a link to LionsGate Films on their website?
Other than trying to be "successful" by association?
http://www.soulcravings.com/
It's just strange...and maybe even disingenuous.
Really!? Where does the money go to from book sales on this "non-profit" web site?
http://awaken.org/resources/list?product_id=1
Can anyone explain to me why Mosaic (Soul Cravings) has a link to LionsGate Films on their website?
Perhaps this will answer your question:
Jesusfreakhideout.com
http://www.jesusfreakhideout.com/news/2007/10/19.LIONSGATE%20EXPANDS%20PRESENCE%20IN%20FAITH-BASED%20MARKET.asp
Lionsgate expands presence in faith-based market as the studio inks three-year deal with Indelible Creative Group
Crave was created by best-selling author and pastor of Mosaic in downtown Los Angeles, Erwin McManus. The new series of short films, from Mosaic’s own Awaken Films, correspond to themes outlined in Erwin’s latest best-selling book, Soul Cravings, which is published by Thomas Nelson. As founder of Awaken, McManus uses the visual storytelling medium of film to reveal the hidden mysteries that permeate the soul. Tapping some of Hollywood’s brightest writers, directors and actors, these films tell stories that can be used in either a church or small group setting. Each film features an intro from McManus and a short message on the theme of the film.
Or course, this still doesn't clarify what the relationship is between Mosaic and Awaken. In fact, I just found this tidbit at:
Crown Video
http://www.crownvideo.com/viewchronicle.php?year=2007&month=05
Erwin McManus
A series of short films is being released by author and pastor Erwin McManus. Crave, which releases next month, will feature 3 shorts from Awaken Films, the production company that is part of McManus' church, Mosaic.
So, help me understand . . . if Awaken Films is the "production company that is a part of McManus church, Mosaic" then what is Mosaic Films?
The Mosaic Newsletter, October 2007contains this:
http://mosaic.org/newsletter
Mosaic Films
Like to direct, produce, write or shoot films and videos? Want to connect with other people in the industry and gain experience on fun and meaningful shoots? The Mosaic film team meets together on the 2nd and 4th Thursday's of every month! Join them!
2711 Orchard Ave., Los Angeles
visit www.mosaic.org/films
So again I ask, what exactly is the relationship between Awaken and Mosaic?????
Yvonne W.
We may get a visit from SiR, don't want to get those writing skills rusty. Matt 5:24
I would like to clarify something. "Mosaic of Pain" is a name that came about to point out that a church named Mosaic has caused much pain (a mosaic of pain). This site is not, nor has it ever been intended to cause pain. We seek to bring healing by shedding light on the many who have been hurt by a group that says it is known by "love".
em
Yvonne,
I just read above that both your father and mother lost their jobs at Mosaic. I'm deeply sorry for your family. How are they doing?
Mosaic is like the old great and decadent City of Babylon. The Babylonians were morally degenerate and followed many different Gods. They thought they were invincible with their great wealth and tall City Walls and great Army. However, God judged them and on that Day of Judgment their enemies did not even need to attack or breach the walls of this ancient City. Their enemies took the city with hardly a fight.
Their enemies merely sailed into the city via the rivers that went underneath the City's massive walls by diverting some water from the rivers ahead of time from outside the walled city.
Mosaic's members and leaders do not give their full and complete allegiance to Jesus Christ but instead they serve other Gods, the God of self, the Gods of materialism and secularism and world pleasure, etc. etc.
Mosaic is city whose walls contain secular Christians and whose Gods show a practice of secular Christianity or worldly Christianity. Such is the Church of Laodecia mentioned in the Book of Revelation. Like Babylon of old, Mosaic will be hit with judgment and will never know what hit it until it already over with.
Anonymous said...
Yvonne,
I just read above that both your father and mother lost their jobs at Mosaic. I'm deeply sorry for your family. How are they doing?
They are doing well, thank you.
Yvonne W.
http://www.jesusfreakhideout.com/news/2007/10/19.LIONSGATE%20EXPANDS%20PRESENCE%20IN%20FAITH-BASED%20MARKET.asp
Keith Green is rolling over in his grave!
"I just read above that both your father and mother lost their jobs at Mosaic. I'm deeply sorry for your family. How are they doing?"
It was more then just loosing their "jobs". They lost their ministry, fellowship, friends and 25 years of their investment in a church they loved.
Erwin McManus is speaking live on KKLA 99.5 FM on the Frank Pastore Show.
When Frank Pastore pointed out that Erwin is 49 years old (and therefore part of the baby boomer generation and not the young, hip generation he is reaching out to) Erwin said this:
"You can be in a generation but not of it."
What????
I going to see if I can get a transcript of this program.
Yvonne W.
Well, this should erase any lingering doubts about whether or not Erwin McManus is a part of the emergent church movement:
The Frank Pastore Show
KKLA
TODAY'S SHOW: Weekdays 4-7 p.m.
An inside look at the emergent church from Erwin McManus, pastor of the Mosaic Church in Los Angeles.
Yvonne W.
Has anyone ever heard of an Internship that one must pay for? This group is making money hand over fist!
The Barbarian Project: Internship
"Each Barbarian must pay $2,000 before beginning the 10 week experience. There is an initial $200 non-refundable deposit due on May 1st preceding the summer internship. The remaining $1800 will be due the first day of beginning the summer internship. This cost covers housing, 8-10 meals per week, internet access, office space, some additional food and supplies, a parking permit (if applicable), and a couple miscellaneous things. The intern will also be financially responsible for the rest of their meals, gas money, and any other personal expenses they might incur, including entertainment, eating out, car insurance, etc. Interns in the past have told us you can life off of $200-$250 per week, but of couse there are a lot of variables. We HIGHLY RECOMMEND having a car for the summer - it’s worth the drive if you can make it. Los Angeles does not have good public transportation, so having a car in LA will be extremely beneficial. If you are not able to bring a car, prepare for getting rides and chipping in for gas with other interns."
We all know that Mosaic asks members to house any volunteers and feed them a meal every day, so where does the $200 per week go to? "The intern will also be financially responsible for the rest of their meals, gas money, and any other personal expenses they might incur, including entertainment, eating out, car insurance, etc."
It must be the, "...a couple miscellaneous things."
http://mosaic.org/internship
When Frank Pastore pointed out that Erwin is 49 years old (and therefore part of the baby boomer generation and not the young, hip generation he is reaching out to) Erwin said this:
"You can be in a generation but not of it."
You go Erwin...that's the double-standard man we've all come to know and experience!
Hhhhhmmmm?
Why do so many of the links that Mosaic and Awaken come in contact with, become non-existent once Yvonne finds them?
http://www.jesusfreakhideout.com/news/2007/10/19.LIONSGATE%20EXPANDS%20PRESENCE%20IN%20FAITH-BASED%20MARKET.asp
http://www.jesusfreakhideout.com
BOTH ARE GONE!
One would think pointing out the fact that there are problems within the mother organization (especially a Christian one) that "Alliance" members would show concern and a genuine desire to find the truth. Yet, here is how one Mosaic Alliance member responded.
This was sent:
"Please prayerfully consider the following - www.mosaicofpain.com
Matthew 5:23,24
"Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to your brother; then come and offer your gift."
The response:
"whoever you are please do not send unsolicited emails to me... bugger off!!"
My reply:
"and "bugger" means what from where you are?"
The leader of the Perth Australia Mosaic responds:
"'go away'... why are you emailing me in Australia?!?!
i cannot believe you are emailing people in Australia about your issues, go get a hug and get over whatever it is..."
My reply:
"oh, I thought it meant something more menacing...ok.
E-mailed you because you are part of Mosaic...if I am mistaken with that...sorry."
His repsonse:
"why on earth are you spamming people?!?!
do you know how bad spamming people makes you look???"
My response:
"are you afraid of the truth?"
His reply:
"bugger off i hate your spam... i did not ask for your emails, you just decided that you have pain and you need to tell the world about it... get some help instead of bleeding all over people!!!!!!!!!!
stop spamming me."
Mine:
"wow, you are so loving and Christ like...isn't "bugger off" equivalent to "F-off"? wow....guess you are afraid of the truth....btw, just mark me as 'spam'"
And this is how it goes when one tries to meet with Mosaic leaders behind closed doors - thus the need for a MOP.
P.S. This response just came through from another Mosaic "Church Office":
"Please remove me from your email list!
Actually, it is a list that Mosaic publishes and is a available to the public.
mosaicalliance.com/files/alliancelist.pdf
The "Church" is slowly getting Mosaic. Wake up people, Mop is turning one soon and no resolution. Why don't you start asking Erwin---Why? Why does it take so long to make things right? Why does he continue to go on radio shows and puff out his chess and share how wonderful his church is--well its not! Its got a lot of problems. MH
To the unidentified poster of December 4, 2007:
You probably meant well when you sent an email to a Mosaic Alliance member but I must say that I completely disagree with this tactic.
I have expressed this opinion before here at MOP.
Please, I feel we need to hold ourselves to a higher standard of conduct.
Yvonne W.
MOPPERS Erwin doesn't get it. The pride is still there. Apologies don't come easy for him. If you know him you would know that. He still has that competitive spirit, if you know him you know what I'm talking about. So maybe "making things right" is a tough mountain to climb. I don't know too many narcissistic people who see their narcissism and change. The man needs help. Those around him like EB are just as guilty for not helping him (maybe its time to stop being tolerant and embrace some love). Being a follower doesn't cut it anymore. Time for some leadership to come out of Mosaic. Some will argue all the leaders that discipled are gone. Not true there are a few who know about this situation. If you love Erwin. You should get him some help. Just a Thought
What would Keith Green think of what's happening at Mosaic...
Asleep in the Light
Do you see, do you see
All the people sinking down
Don't you care, don't you care
Are you gonna let them drown
How can you be so numb
Not to care if they come
You close your eyes
And pretend the job's done
"Oh bless me Lord, bless me Lord"
You know it's all I ever hear
No one aches, no one hurts
No one even sheds one tear
But He cries, He weeps, He bleeds
And He cares for your needs
And you just lay back
And keep soaking it in,
Oh, can't you see it's such a sin?...
************
************
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