Through a turn of events this will be the new Mosaic of Pain comments blog.
Please feel free to start posting your comments here.
skip to main |
skip to sidebar
Posts
Archive
It's Kinda Like This...(Pg 14)
Brady Didn't Live Up To Values(Pg 13)
MOP Comments (Pg 12)
MOP Comments (Pg 11)
MOP Comments (Pg 10)
MOP Comments (Pg 9)
MOP Comments (Pg 8)
MOP Comments (Pg 7)
MOP Comments (Pg 6)
MOP Comments (Pg 5)
MOP Comments (Pg 4)
MOP Comments (Pg 3)
Prim. Aim - Mission Statement(Pg 2)
Mop Comments (Pg 1)
Brady Didn't Live Up To Values(Pg 13)
MOP Comments (Pg 12)
MOP Comments (Pg 11)
MOP Comments (Pg 10)
MOP Comments (Pg 9)
MOP Comments (Pg 8)
MOP Comments (Pg 7)
MOP Comments (Pg 6)
MOP Comments (Pg 5)
MOP Comments (Pg 4)
MOP Comments (Pg 3)
Prim. Aim - Mission Statement(Pg 2)
Mop Comments (Pg 1)
Back to Home Page
MOP Administrator
Cris Aguilar
125 comments:
I heard the "turn of events" was the group in question was stalking and using their usual tactics to intimidate the original author of MOP. Is that correct?
Good to see it back. :)
Might I offer a suggestion? I think it would be helpful to establish a set of guidelines on posting. Just to avoid any future "misunderstandings."
Y
Good point Yvonne. The "View my profile" section of this blog has a fairly good suggestion of how to formulate comments,
"This site is to spark questions and hopefully heathy discussion to bring about radical change in Christ's Church and specifically at Mosaic."
Cris should feel free to delete any comments that are not "healthy".
We love you DP
"I fear all we have done is to awaken a sleeping giant..." Isoroku Yamamoto
Yes, and in this case that "Giant" is the TRUTH.
Have anyone of you actually formally contacted the leadership at Mosaic with your complaints? Or have you just assumed they are obsessing over this website and are going to contact you?
Dear Anonymous,
I'm going to answer your question concerning whether we have contacted Mosaic - YES.
Both this site "MOP" and Truth Discovery are about excatly that fact - that the leadership at Mosaic has been contacted many times by many individuals over the years and they do not change.
Not sure if you are new to this discussion, but would suggest you look at: http://truthdiscovery.blogspot.com/ and you will understand better - that is if you truly want to know.
Anonymous,
Yes, my husband did try to contact Erwin, via telephone and e-mail. He has yet to respond. Perhaps
we should try putting a message on the Goodyear blimp, what say you?
Recent turn of events would cause me to conclude that, oh yeah, they are obsessing and scrambling. Doing everything but examining their hearts and theology. I am saddened by their response and yet I know that at least the "sleeping giant" has their attention. Even if they refuse to allow God to search their hearts, I happen to know that some in their flock are beginning to sense something is "rotten in the state of Denmark", in this case, Los Angeles County. (what can I say, I love Shakespeare)
...Kimberly Aguilar
P.S If you've been reading these blogs for the past few weeks you would have read how Erwin deals with people behind closed doors. What sane person would knowingly subject themselves to that.
My name is Matt Shriver. I have had the privilege of serving under the ministries of Tom Wolf, Robbie Sortino and Erwin McManus. I have learned and observed a lot over the last 15 years from these men both in word and deed. As I read and process these articles and blogs over the last 2 days I feel compelled to share my story. I hope that the moderator of this site will take this comment with an open mind and let others read it for what it might have to offer.
It has not been easy serving at Mosaic over the last 7 years. I was involved with the healthcare ministry serving in Ensenada and then taking teams to Indonesia following the tsunami. At times I felt a bit underappreciated for the work I coordinated and led. I did receive the Mosaic Breakthrough Award in 2000, only after a couple arduous years of seeing the ministry get off its feet. That sustained my morale until this year when I decided to step down after a year of sabbatical sensing a desire to spend more time with family and pursue Masters degree.
At times serving at Mosaic, I can relate to the words of Thoreau: "Why should we be in such desperate haste to succeed, and in such desperate enterprises?…"
When I say that it has not been easy, I am referring to the seemingly lack of support from Mosaic core staff. Our ministry depended solely upon funds from our own pockets or those that were generated from people going on our trips. We did not receive one dime from the Mosaic organization to sustain or grow our ministry. We had to depend on God a lot for everything we wanted to accomplish.
I share the above to bring up the fact that there are many leadership types in the Church today. Many pastors are generous to those individuals who would dare to start something new. I had to resolve in my heart early on that Erwin would not be that type of leader and has said it himself that poverty breeds creativity. This was true in my case and God did the people of Mosaic pulling together to accomplish much.
I do have to say that at times I dealt with resentment that some ministries at Mosaic were treated with a bit of, shall I say "favoritism"? I finally did come to a point where I simply wanted to know if the leadership was with me or not and asked for a few key resources to test the waters. I am one who is not afraid to ask questions and refuse to be a bystander. This coincidentally was one or two months before Hurricane Katrina hit. If you think the US federal government did little to prepare for a catastrophe, then I would have to say Mosaic as an organization was guilty as well. Many at Mosaic reacted to the hurricane by pulling together a team and helping, but I felt that my leaders let me down by not having the vision of how we could be used if equipped with the right kinds of tools and equipment before tragedy strikes. I declined to help after Katrina and felt like it was going against my principles. I thought it was a bit hypocritical to react after the disaster when no one wanted to prepare for it in the first place. However, I did not lose the desire to help those in need. I stayed at Mosaic and helped put another team together for the Indonesia Tsunami survivors. I never seriously contemplated leaving Mosaic.
I never have quite hit it off with Erwin like I have with other leaders at the COB or Mosaic. I seemed to always put my foot in my mouth. Another thing I had to resolve early on was that he was not going to be the warm, fuzzy that I had grown up observing pastors to be. Early on in Erwin's ministry at COB/Mosaic, we learned how different we all are through Myers/Briggs and later the Strengths Finder exam. This could be seen as a sinister plot to get us to compartmentalize conflict and suppress it mentally. Or, in my case it was a way for me to appreciate our different perspectives based on how God designed us so differently. This training has helped me so much at church and in my career. It has helped me to also appreciate the different leaders at Mosaic as well.
I guess I want to stress through this oversized comment that through all the years of not seeing eye to eye on things with Mosaic leadership especially Erwin, including the Wolfs and Sortinos departures, no general funds and minimal verbal support for my ministry, the lack of upkeep and selling of the Church on Brady, a constant repetitive theme to "dream", etc., etc., I could either "become bitter, or better" as Brother Tom used to say in his sermons. I am not casting judgment on anyone here, I am simply attempting to bear my soul as a semi-neutral party to this discussion.
One thing I do know for a fact is that there are so many people around the world right now making a huge impact, much larger than I have yet to make. Who am I when I compare myself to Paul and Cyndi Richardson and the sacrifice they are making in the jungles of Indonesia for the sake of Christ. Who am I compared to Nabil and Mimi Khouri and their family in war-torn Lebanon where they refused to evacuate even when the bombs were falling close to their home. These are two but a whole slew of examples of those making a huge difference. I have to say that under Erwin's leadership, these people have been supported both financially and relationally. They are acknowledged and used as an inspiration to me and many others possibly including those reading this entry. Erwin’s worldview is definitely unique but it is biblical and he holds church leaders to high standards. Still being at Mosaic I have the opportunity to witness the larger context to this ministry. To simply criticize based on reading his books and by obtaining other secondary forms of information, people do a disservice not only to Mosaic but also to their own testimony. i.e., no page numbers and the spiritually generic flavor to Soul Cravings.
I often think and share it now that meeting the people of the Church on Brady and now Mosaic and being impacted by their lives, their words, their deeds, and their examples, is the reason I am the man I am today. Ask a few people who work with me and I'm almost sure a few would say I'm a bit overly confident, possibly narcissistic, and a bit of a cowboy! In spite of that, I would hope that some would say I am a good worker, decent leader, and that I care about people. This is what I want to say about Pastor Erwin.
I'm curious and would like to humbly to pose this last question: what is the goal or mission statement for Mosaic of Pain? In my opinion that is where the conversation should go next in order to try and predict where this will end up and what the consequences could be.
Thanks for taking the time to read my entry. Feel free to contact me at Godsrn@aol.com or phone 323-481-8322 to respond or just to say hello.
For the sake of the lost,
Matt Shriver
Matt,
You raise a couple of good points. Of course the comment that you had the opportunity to be hurt or embittered would be true when serving hard with one’s own money and energy. Many struggle with that from time to time. Fortunately, through God’s grace and Spirit we can overcome those wrong feelings.
However, I think what is trying to be addressed here is different. Think of the spouse that is unappreciative of what the other spouse has to do to carry their load. Say for instance a stay-at-home mom. The husband takes her for granted, dismisses how hard it is to run a house and take care of the kids all day long. That would be similar to what you have written about. I believe we all have been through that; and that is not what this is about.
Now, think of a spouse that is abusive towards his/her spouse. That’s what this is about. Abuse. Abuse of power; abuse of trust; abuse of leadership; abuse of relationship. Dishonesty. Manipulation.
Another point you made that I find interesting is that you felt like you were the one at fault. You wrote:
"I never have quite hit it off with Erwin like I have with other leaders at the COB or Mosaic. I seemed to always put my foot in my mouth. Another thing I had to resolve early on was that he was not going to be the warm, fuzzy that I had grown up observing pastors to be."
Many have posted the link to an article called, “Narcissism In The Pulpit”. I believe if you were to read that entire article (I say “entire” because it is very long, but very eye opening) you would be shocked to realize that it predicts your exact feelings.
I hope and pray all of the members at Mosaic have fruitful and full ministries.
Eddie Marshall
I agree with Matt. I am in a very similar situation. I have realized that in a church of over 3,300 people, Erwin cannot lead or be friends with everyone. I know Robbie's and Robert's story very well. I know the other side that many of you are not talking about as well. I just don't see justification for calling this abuse or even calling for Erwin's resignation
Matt: I thought your post was humble, articulate, and reasoned. Knowing your character, that doesn't surprise me at all. I'm replying because you mentioned my review. I wrote about the lack of page numbers because sometimes I like to cite key passages by specific page numbers. I couldnt do that with Soul Cravings and it was frustrating. Regarding the larger question you raised, it's a good one: what is the mission or goal of MOP? I can say, at least for me, that it is a warning to unbelievers and new believers about two serious issues: the abberant doctrines being taught at Mosaic and the abuse of power in leadership. Let me make it clear though that I wouldnt have posted about the latter issue if it weren't for the former. I was shocked when I read Erwin's books how far afield he has strayed biblically. I never dreamed in a million years such teaching would ever be taught at Mosaic. Regarding the abuse issue, part of the reason I left Mosaic is the absolute indifference leadership had over the removal of two friends of mine from fellowship (I am not referring here to Bro Tom). Since that time, I have been alarmed at the rate of attrition of very good leaders at the church. I still wouldnt have posted criticisms of a church I came to Christ in, got baptized at, and made life-long friendships in if it werent for the doctrine issue. I believe that doctrine has influenced the decisions to mishandle leaders and relationships. As you know, I go into detail with this on my blog. I hope I havent offended you with my posts. You have helped me greatly in my walk with Christ. God bless.
Let me be clear here. This is not about wanting to be someone’s friend. It is about violation of pastor/parishioner trust. It is about lying and deceiving. Is that not clear? I am not asking anyone to accept or believe this claim at face value, but the propensity to continue to say, “Erwin can’t be everyone’s friend.” is becoming a bit old. That is NOT what this is about. This is not about a few individuals that wanted more of Erwin’s time or understanding. This IS about a number of individuals that have been lied to, deceived, and manipulated. And when they tried to deal with the lies, deception and mistreatment they were lied to, and about.
Strange how not one person challenges or contradicts these claims.
EM
Would somebody please tell us what the "turn of events" were? MOP was such a great myspace page. The comments from the Mosaic leadership on the left margin were so telling and there was such a great thread going. What could possibly cause MOP to take it down?
Look for a answer soon to your question about the "turn of events".
On, February 20, 2007 10:34 PM, anonymous asked: "tell us about what the 'turn of events' were" (MOP MySpace)... Answers:
http://truthdiscovery.blogspot.com/2007/02/no-space-for-myspace.html
I'm confused. In the link below, its supposedly written by Robbie Sortino. Why does he refer to his son "David"? Was it written by Robbie?
http://truthdiscovery.blogspot.com/2007/02/no-space-for-myspace.html
Okay I have heard many stories and read many blogs. I am somewhat confused on some things and would like to start from the beginning so that I can start putting the pieces together. I used to attend The Church on Brady. So lets start where the church was going to get the new Pastor.
Question:
What made Erwin feel that he had to move the mission from the ground that it was BUILT UP on?
Stephanie Ballesteros Herrera
I read Robbie's post and man, it makes me angry. That they would go after one who has been so abused and betrayed in the past is unbelievable. What bothers me moste about it is that so many people who knew his history were a part of it. How could they do that? Is anybody else angry about this?
[Sorry everyone, I've had technical problems with my blogger account. This was supposed to be posted a few days ago.]
Hello Matt,
My Name is Yvonne.
I am just a fellow poster here at Mosaic of Pain and have no familial ties to the person running this website. I do appreciate your well thought out and respectfully worded response. It is my hope that in the future, all of us will be able to discuss these difficult issues in a similar manner.
I am responding to something you wrote:
"Erwin’s worldview is definitely unique but it is biblical and he holds church leaders to high standards. Still being at Mosaic I have the opportunity to witness the larger context to this ministry. To simply criticize based on reading his books and by obtaining other secondary forms of information, people do a disservice not only to Mosaic but also to their own testimony. i.e., no page numbers and the spiritually generic flavor to Soul Cravings."
The majority of the people who have chosen to share their personal, FIRST HAND accounts here have been former leaders at Mosaic. I myself was once a share group leader when Mosaic was still called The Church on Brady. When considering the complaints being made please take into account the wide range of leadership responsibilities respresented: former small group and other volunteer leaders, foreign missionaries and paid staff members. Until recently, my own father held the title of Executive Pastor. These are all people who have had a face to face relationship with Erwin McManus and not individuals who know him only through his books and "secondary materials."
I am genuinely sorry that you felt "underappreciated" and did not receive the financial and emotional support you needed for your ministry. I do remember that was a fairly common complaint, however; the issues being raised here at Mosaic of Pain are of a far more serious nature than a simple "lack of support."
Mosaic has done some wonderful things, things that no doubt have brought glory to the Kingdom of God and saved many lives, yet to return to your statement above:
"Erwin’s worldview is definitely unique but it is biblical and he holds church leaders to high standards."
I am not convinced that his "worldview" is biblical and there are many scholary critics who can do a much better job of pointing out the flaws in his worldview than I ever could. As to his holding church leaders to high standards, those standards should apply to himself as well. Are not all leaders supposed to hold themselves "above reproach?" Some serious, specific, questions have been raised by others and I for one would like to hear some serious answers.
With all due respect,
Yvonne W.
with all due respect, no one has posted anything (on this site or the myspace) that proves misappropriation of money, "secrets", or even Erwin doing anything that merits his resignation. Yvonne, I know your father and the attitude and story that he give to others at Mosaic is much different than your tone here.
There is alot of "back story" that people at Mosaic have been telling me that make these stories all make sense. And, these aren't leaders, but lay people (and I assume you will say that ALL of them have been brainwashed by Erwin) who have been around since Brady.
Yvonne, your father was a part of the leadership team that hurt so many people back in the day, right? So then why are you not pointing the finger at your dad as well?
Anonymous - February 21, 2007 4:07 PM
You wrote, "And, these aren't leaders, but lay people" First, the last people that should be abused are those that serve for no pay, or are Lay Ministers. Second, some of those speaking out on this site are paid ex-staff with Mosaic.
Hmmmmmm, let's see why don't we raise money to build a building and not even buy land, let alone build the building. You want to challenge this one? Fine, we'll see how the correct governing agencies rule on this.
THE BRICK
A young and successful executive as traveling down a neighborhood street, going a bit too fast in his new Jaguar. He was watching for kids darting out from between parked cars and slowed down when he thought he saw something. As his car passed, no children appeared .. Instead, a brick smashed into the Jag's side door! He slammed on the brakes and backed the Jag back to the spot where the brick had been thrown. The angry driver then jumped out of the car, grabbed the nearest kid and pushed him up against a parked car shouting, "What was that all about and who are you? Just what the heck are you doing? That's a new car and that brick you threw is going to cost a lot of money. Why did you do it?" The young boy was apologetic. "Please, mister...please, I'm sorry but I didn't know what else to do," He pleaded. "I threw the brick because no one else would stop..." With tears dripping down his face and off his chin, the youth pointed to a spot just around a parked car. "It's my brother, "he said. "He rolled off the curb and fell out of his wheelchair and I can't lift him up." Now sobbing, the boy asked the stunned executive, "Would you please help me get him back into his wheelchair? He's hurt and he's too heavy for me." Moved beyond words, the driver tried to swallow the rapidly swelling lump in his throat. He hurriedly lifted the handicapped boy back into the wheelchair, then took out a linen handkerchief and dabbed at the fresh scrapes and cuts. A quick look told him everything was going to be okay. "Thank you and may God bless you," the grateful child told the stranger. Too shook up for words, the man simply watched the boy! push his wheelchair-bound brother down the sidewalk toward their home. It was a long, slow walk back to the Jaguar. The damage was very noticeable, but the driver never bothered to repair the dented side door.
He kept the dent there to remind him of this message: "Don't go through life so fast that someone has to throw a brick at you to get your attention!" God whispers in our souls and speaks to our hearts. Sometimes when we don't have time to listen, He has to throw a brick at us. It's our choice to listen or not.
Read this line very slowly and let it sink in... If God brings you to it, He will bring you through it.
To "Anonymous",
I at least have the courage to identify myself, but who are you?
You wrote:
"with all due respect, no one has posted anything (on this site or the myspace) that proves misappropriation of money,..."
[May I ask where you read anything regarding "misappropriation of money?" Please point it out to me and I will respond. "I" have NEVER said anything about the use or misuse of funds. Before you bring it up again though, you may want to speak with someone in leadership before opening that can of worms.]
"secrets",...
[Again, to what are you referring?]
"...or even Erwin doing anything that merits his resignation."
[I have said nothing about calling for Erwin's resignation. What I have asked for are some answers to the questions raised by others on this site. I am still waiting.]
"...Yvonne, I know your father and the attitude and story that he give to others at Mosaic is much different than your tone here."
[Really? In what way? Be specific. Aside from that, why wouldn't my alleged "tone" be different? I am not my father, I don't have any allegiance to Mosaic or its leadership so even if I chose to be as belligerant as possible, what of it? My "tone" has nothing to do with the FACT that a great many people are now coming forward, independently and of their own free will, to share their stories of what happened to them at Mosaic. I have had absolutely nothing to do with that.]
"...There is alot of "back story" that people at Mosaic have been telling me that make these stories all make sense. And, these aren't leaders, but lay people (and I assume you will say that ALL of them have been brainwashed by Erwin) who have been around since Brady."
[What is this "back story" you are referring to? I really am curious to find out. "Brainwashing?" You said it, not me.]
"...Yvonne, your father was a part of the leadership team that hurt so many people back in the day, right? So then why are you not pointing the finger at your dad as well?"
[Have I ever claimed my father was completely innocent? If you have a complaint against him, why don't you approach him? How does shifting the emphasis to my father exonerate Erwin McManus? If anything, such an attempt looks silly and is illogical.]
In the future, if you are inclined to launch a personal attack against me please limit your remarks to the things I have actually said rather than simply lumping together any or everything you've read here. I would also appreciate seeing the face of my attacker rather than the mask of "anonymous."
Yvonne
Correction. I misunderstood Anonymous when they wrote:
"There is alot of "back story" that people at Mosaic have been telling me that make these stories all make sense. And, these aren't leaders, but lay people"
I thought it was being said that the stories written on here were only by "lay people".
Now I understand. You are talking about what people have been telling you. Otherwise known as "gossip".
Wow! And you are serious. So, now you have a full understanding of this situation since you have been told all the gossip behind it.
Below is an article I came across on the internet and I thought I'd share it. This article is not being shared to compare Mosaic with the People's Temple, but to give warning of the similarities in "group mentality."
http://www.raptureready.com/rr-kool-aid.html
Don't Drink the Kool-Aid
In November of 1978, the world was shocked by the suicide deaths of 913 members of the People's Temple cult. Jim Jones, the leader of the group, convinced his followers to move to Jonestown, Guyana, a remote community that Jones carved out of the South American jungle and named after himself. Jones constantly feared losing control of his followers. His paranoia was the main reason he moved the cult to Guyana.
The mass suicide occurred after U.S. Rep. Leo Ryan of California and a team of reporters visited the compound to investigate reports of abuse. After some members tried to leave with the congressman’s group, Jim Jones had Ryan and his entourage ambushed at the nearby airstrip. He then ordered his flock to commit suicide by drinking grape-flavored Kool-Aid laced with potassium cyanide.
The mass suicide wasn’t a spur-of-the-moment decision. During the weeks that preceded the dreadful event, Jones had conducted a series of suicide drills, according to survivors. An alarm call would sound and every person in the camp would line up to receive a fatal dosage. These exercises in insanity proved that all of the adults at the compound knew what would be the result of their actions.
The People’s Temple did not start off as your average mind-controlling cult. It initially gained much respect as an interracial mission for the sick, homeless and jobless. Jim Jones did not manifest his darker side until near the end.
One lasting legacy of the Jonestown tragedy is the saying, “Don’t drink the Kool-Aid.” This has come to mean, "Don’t trust any group you find to be a little on the kooky side." Of course, you would have to know of Kool-Aid’s dubious connection to Jim Jones to understand the proverb.
Good Advice From A Lost Soul
Several years ago, I was making arrangements to attend a prophecy conference in Florida. I casually told my fellow office workers about my plans. One of them jokingly advised me not to drink the Kool-Aid. He was obviously making a reference to the Jonestown incident.
His comment did not strike me as being offensive, but it did give a sad insight into this man’s perception of the Christian faith. In one way, his warning was very good advice. We should always know whom we are associating with, and we should not allow relationships to draw us into regrettable situations.
It is actually quite rare for religious groups to commit mass suicide. I can only recall three other major incidents of a similar nature that have occurred since Jonestown. Most cults are quite peaceful, and they typically try to maintain a low profile. The Jehovah’s Witnesses are one such example. They have never been known to carry out any violent acts.
The most dangerous feature of cults is the erroneous doctrine they propagate. The falsehood that causes a soul to be eternally lost is far more deadly than any earthly poison. One reason I never argue with cult members who come knocking on my door is that I know they didn’t come to hear what I have to say; their purpose for being at my door is to ensnare me.
In all cases of doctrinal error, the poison itself is not really what we should be worried about. False teachings always will contaminate the thinking of men. The root of the problem is what leads people to consuming this falsehood. The members of People's Temple knew that drinking poison is bad for you. Their better judgment was overcome by their blind trust in a mortal man.
Christians shouldn’t be suspicious of everything we hear from the pulpit. We just need to use Bible-based common sense. We should all be like the Bereans of Acts 17, never taking any new teaching at the word of the speaker, but rather using Scripture to verify anything that seems to conflict with sound biblical doctrine.
“These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so” (Acts 17:11).
Keep your eyes and ears open---Jacob
how ironic that YOU bring up gossip. So if you tell your side of the story you are "helping people see the truth". If Mosaic members tell their side they are "gossiping". Funny how that all works out.
Yvonne, the first sentance was not addressed to you, and that is why I specifically addressed you in the second sentence. I was just pointing out that Robert's response to all of this has been amazing. He obviously has his disagreements, but has chosen to not go off the handle and bash the leadership at Mosaic. I also think if you are going to investigate the actions of Erwin, you must also investigate the actions of his accountability elder board. Robert is then responsible for most of your hurt, right?
Lastly about the funds... Mosaic now basically owns Mott auditorium, a 40,000 square foot site in the Inland Empire, can rent out the Mayan and Beverly Hills High School each week. You are wondering where the money went?
But, I am sure this won't be posted here.
Anonymous,
Mosaic owns the Mott center "basicly". What does basicly mean? I basicly own Disneyland? I've visited, so I must own it. And I believe the pastor in Chino was/is R. Neighbor, before the vultures stepped in. Don't start another arguement your not equipped to begin. And who are you specificly calling a gossip (I think we've covered this already). You better be careful brother/sister. And sorry for flying off the handle, but I don't belong to the reservation anymore.
"Anonymous"
You don't mind if we just label you the official bearer of that name, do you..?
Anonymous said...
how ironic that YOU bring up gossip. So if you tell your side of the story you are "helping people see the truth". If Mosaic members tell their side they are "gossiping". Funny how that all works out.
We are sharing first hand experiences here. You are listening to others tell you what they have "heard". Any and all are invited to share their first hand experiences here, also. No matter what persuasion they are.
Anonymous said:
Yvonne, the first sentance was not addressed to you, and that is why I specifically addressed you in the second sentence. I was just pointing out that Robert's response to all of this has been amazing. He obviously has his disagreements, but has chosen to not go off the handle and bash the leadership at Mosaic. I also think if you are going to investigate the actions of Erwin, you must also investigate the actions of his accountability elder board. Robert is then responsible for most of your hurt, right?
Huh????
Anonymous said:
"Lastly about the funds... Mosaic now basically owns Mott auditorium, a 40,000 square foot site in the Inland Empire, can rent out the Mayan and Beverly Hills High School each week. You are wondering where the money went?"
Hmmm...I'll check that out and let this blog know if Mosaic "basically owns Mott auditorium" I am sure that the U.S. Center For World Missions will be more than happy to corroborate that claim.
And, "misappropriation" means to use money raised for one purpose on a different one. In this case that would be money raised to purchase a building, in the end is used to RENT others.
Anonymous said:
But, I am sure this won't be posted here.
Guess again. You see "Anonymous" we are about disclosure and communication. Not containment and manipulation. There isn't anything you can post here that can hurt the TRUTH.
P.S. You are doing a very good job of expressing exactly how some of the Mosaic leadership acts. Taking statements and twisting them, etc...keep up the good job!
All,
How about some comments concerning what happened to Robbie and his family (by the way David is his adopted son, for those who were confused).
Anonymous,
I truly am trying to understand what it is you are getting at so help me out here if I'm misunderstanding you:
"how ironic that YOU bring up gossip. So if you tell your side of the story you are "helping people see the truth". If Mosaic members tell their side they are "gossiping". Funny how that all works out."
[By "YOU", I take it to mean you are referring to MOP as a group.]
Please refer to this website for an excellent explanation of what is and is not "gossip."
http://www.wayoflife.org/fbns/whatisgossip.htm
What gossip is NOT:
1. SPEAKING TRUTH TO PROPER PARTIES FOR A GODLY PURPOSE IS NOT GOSSIP
2. QUESTIONING A PREACHER’S TEACHING IS NOT GOSSIP
3. WARNING OF SIN AND ERROR IS NOT GOSSIP
4. ADMONISHING ONE ANOTHER IS NOT GOSSIP
THIS is what the people here at MOP are trying to do.
"Yvonne, the first sentance was not addressed to you, and that is why I specifically addressed you in the second sentence."
This wasn't clear in your original post which is why I addressed it, besides, why can't I give an answer to it anyway?
"I was just pointing out that Robert's response to all of this has been amazing. He obviously has his disagreements, but has chosen to not go off the handle and bash the leadership at Mosaic."
Are you serious? At this point in time my dad is still trying to get over the shock of what happened to him. Have you even spoken to him in person? I suspect you are a member of leadership so you probably already know how he feels. My father's silence in public is no indication of how he feels in private.
"I also think if you are going to investigate the actions of Erwin, you must also investigate the actions of his accountability elder board. Robert is then responsible for most of your hurt, right?"
I'm not even sure I can follow the logic of these poorly written sentences. What exactly are you trying to say? I am not "investigating" anything but I do wonder what would show up if any type of formal investigation were to occur.
"Lastly about the funds... Mosaic now basically owns Mott auditorium, a 40,000 square foot site in the Inland Empire, can rent out the Mayan and Beverly Hills High School each week. You are wondering where the money went?"
WHAT FUNDS????
The way you keep harping on this point only spurs my curiosity to greater and greater heights. (?)
"But, I am sure this won't be posted here."
Well, it was. I seriously doubt that any of the official Mosaic websites would welcome critical comments from anyone in favor of MOP.
Yvonne
In reference to “Anonymous said at February 21, 2007 10:21 PM”
But, I am sure this won't be posted here.
Let me assure you that this blog has been created "to spark questions and hopefully healthy discussion". We accept your comments and they will continue to be posted, even if you disagree with all or portions of it's content.
You have to realize that this site is NOT controlled by Mosaic. You can speak freely here. You may be used to the containment of Mosaic but unlike them, this MOP blog is a free public forum to discuss the issues at hand. Someone doesn't "pick and choose" what get's to be posted. As long as it pertains to the subject and keeps on the healthy side, then it is posted. I can say to this point 100% of the comments have been posted.
Last note, if you happen to be a person with questions, a person to challenge others, a person not in total agreement with Erwin or his movement then my "anonymous" friend you will be given your first MOP "aha" moment. Isolation and "the boot" is where you will find yourself.
Hey Anonymous,
Enough with the Ad Hominum attacks against Robbie.
EG: "An ad hominem argument, also known as argumentum ad hominem (Latin: "argument to the person", "argument against the man") consists of replying to an argument by attacking or appealing to the person making the argument, rather than by addressing the substance of the argument. It is most commonly used to refer specifically to the ad hominem abusive, or argumentum ad personam, which consists of criticizing or personally attacking an argument's proponent in an attempt to discredit that argument."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominum
Let's deal with the issues at hand, the issues that I and Robbie and others who have had the courage to post with our names are bringing up, instead of attacking Robbies failed relationship with Missy. Irregardless of what happened with Robbie and Missy, Robbie has relevant and serious issues that he has raised regarding MOSAIC and Erwin's leadership.
Thanks,
Frank Loaiza
1. If current Mosaic members have had first hand experience with the situation with Robbie, the Tom/Erwin transition, the money handling, then it isn't gossip. People who were directly involved have spoken up, so it is not gossip. I just found it ironic that you feel posting your first hand experiences on the web was not gossip, but if someone tells their first hand experience and disagrees with you, then it is.
2. Do you think Erwin works in a bubble? he has an elder board that he is accountable to for his decisions. Now, I suppose you could dismiss that and say that Robert, Enrique, Rick, etc are all brainwashed and controlled by the man himself (that would be all too easy). But assuming that isn't the logical case, then Robert, Rick, Enrique, etc. are all equally responsible for the actions you have described. Therefore, you need to call all of their characters into question.
3. It's just strange to me that you pick and choose the elements of the stories that you choose to tell. Once you get the whole story (and again, I have heard it from several Mosaic volunteers who still have relationships with many of you and have decided to tell their first hand experiences), it makes alot more sense.
oh... and how is MOPmembers not anonymous as well?
Mosaic of love,
Why are you so concerned about "money handling" and gossip. I believe you protest too much. However, it appears you are receiving information from someone or others. That would not make it "firsthand". And not to many people from Mosaic have spoken up from your organization.
Does Erwin live in a bubble? "...Robert, Enrique, Rick, etc are all brainwashed and controlled by the man himself..." You seem to want to take this blog into another direction. I don't think your helping your cause. But since you want to go down that road, I'll go ahead and oblige. I suggest you ask the elders. You may not find a unified group. And to remind you, Erwin is an elder. I know this practice was common before Erwin's tenure, but how does one become accountable to himself? Its all politics my friend. You don't think Erwin has an influence on his co-elders. He picked half of them. Please stop being so naive.
And what stories are we not completing. Are you sure you know the whole story. Who are you Mosaic of Love? Because you sound familiar, you must be on staff. This is the type of love that we were all familiar with when we were at Mosaic. And the people I have relationships with at Mosaic are capable of speaking for themselves. I don't think they'd appreciate you being their spokesman/woman (You keep hearing stuff-how's that not gossip?). Now I may understand why they'd write anonymously. They don't want to be called into a dark office. What's your excuse? Oh that's right your not going to tell us - nanananana--Jacob
(Sigh)
It seems to me that a few terms need to be defined before these discussions can go any further.
First hand account:
A first hand account is a retelling of an event told from a first person (I) perspective.
Example: (Emphasis added for clarity)
"A few days ago (I) woke to find my cat curled up in the bottom of my clothes hamper. (I) thought it was a very funny thing to see."
To be "first hand", the one doing the telling is the person who actually witnessed or experienced the event.
Second hand account: A retelling of an event as told to a second party.
Example: (My sister on the phone to one of her friends)
"A few days ago, (my sister Yvonne) told me she found her cat curled up in the bottom of the clothes hamper, it sounded funny."
In this case, my sister didn't see the cat curled up in the hamper but heard about it from me.
If the friend goes on to repeat the story to others, then the story becomes a third hand account and so on and so on.
Now to answer Mosaic of Love (Your screen name, right? Just like mopmember is screen name.)
* "1. If current Mosaic members have had first hand experience with the situation with Robbie, the Tom/Erwin transition, the money handling, then it isn't gossip."
EXACTLY! Well done! You got it right. Now then, what is YOUR "first hand" experience?
* "People who were directly involved have spoken up, so it is not gossip. I just found it ironic that you feel posting your first hand experiences on the web was not gossip, but if someone tells their first hand experience and disagrees with you, then it is."
With the exception of Matt Shriver, (thank you Matt for both signing your name and expressing your thoughts in a first person/ first hand account!) I haven't read any other "first hand" accounts on this MOP comment board.
While I may disagree with Matt's conclusions, I have no problem with him telling his own personal story. It is NOT gossip and he has every right to tell it.
What I do have a problem with is this alleged "back story" that seems to be circulating at Mosaic. What is this "story?"
(I still want to hear it.)
If it is NOT people sharing their first hand accounts of their own, personal interactions with staff members but more of a "did you hear this" or worse, if it isn't a "story" at all but a "speculative explanation" of what is going on THEN ... that IS gossip.
* "2. Do you think Erwin works in a bubble? he has an elder board that he is accountable to for his decisions. Now, I suppose you could dismiss that and say that Robert, Enrique, Rick, etc are all brainwashed and controlled by the man himself (that would be all too easy). But assuming that isn't the logical case, then Robert, Rick, Enrique, etc. are all equally responsible for the actions you have described. Therefore, you need to call all of their characters into question."
Do you actually read any of the posts made here?
Go back and re-read loweyesah's post regarding the logic fallacy called Ad Hominem.
What you are doing here though is another type of logic fallacy called Ignoratio Elenchi: Red Herring:
"A red herring is a deliberate attempt to change the subject or divert the argument from the real question at issue to some side-point; for instance, “Senator Jones should not be held accountable for cheating on his income tax. After all, there are other senators who have done far worse things.”
http://web.cn.edu/kwheeler/fallacies_list.html
While it may be true that my father and the rest of the elders bare some responsibility for allowing the alleged abuses mentioned here to continue without holding Erwin accountable, that doesn't excuse his actions.
* "3. It's just strange to me that you pick and choose the elements of the stories that you choose to tell. Once you get the whole story (and again, I have heard it from several Mosaic volunteers who still have relationships with many of you and have decided to tell their first hand experiences), it makes alot more sense."
You know what I find strange? I find it strange that none of the posts made by Erwin/Mosaic supporters have actually addressed the issues. There's been a lot of angry sounding responses but so far no one has stepped up to offer an explanation or defense for the specific abuses he has allegedly perpetrated.
What is your response to the police visit to Robbie Sortino's house? The leaders who showed up in the middle of the night unannounced?
Can you explain the reasoning behind his dismissal from ministry?
There are many other guestions people have raised here that I for one would like to hear the answers to but so far no one has bothered to address them.
One last comment:
If any of you have read something on Robbie Sortino's (or anybody else's) site that you want to respond to, PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE ... put your response there where everyone can see it in context or at least give some type of citation so others can go back to read the original post. It makes it very difficult to carry on an intelligent discussion when one has to keep jogging back and forth to figure out what someone is talking about.
Yvonne
P.S. mopmember has a "link" on his name so he isn't in the same category as an unidentifiable "anonymous."
Mosaic of Love,
How about you just list all of the things that you have been "told" about all of us on here.
Because, to be honest, it is very difficult to follow your line of logic and your comments; they are very poorly constructed and written.
Do what you came here to do. Make one comment and put all the "back story" you have on us. You can start with me, Eddie Marshall.
And then, please for the sake of all of our sanity, go away or learn to communicate clearly.
I agree 100% with Yvonne on her reply to "Mosaic of Love".
Btw, MOL you are now consistently identifiable. It was just the Anonymous is used by many new users, so thank you for taking on an identity.
It is up to you if you want to use a screen name or your real one. Since I do not like visits in the middle of the night from "well-meaning" Mosaic leaders or the police...I choose to use a screen name.
• Yvonne, so by your definition, what you have "heard" about what has happened to your dad and Robbie is second hand info and therefore gossip right? From what I know, none of you have been on paid staff for years, and therefore none of you were in meetings about Robert’s retirement or were there the night when people came to meet with Robbie…so by YOUR definition it is gossip. The people that I have heard from WERE there with the transition with Tom/Erwin and WERE there for the Robbie incident. Their info is not gossip, and more than yours is. If they choose to tell their story (as many of you have) then it is factual, right?
• These people have refused to go public with their stories because they don’t feel it necessary to bring up hurtful information that puts many of these events in context (i.e. moral failures, painful marriage situations, etc.). But maybe that needs to happen?
• The MOP link leads to another anonymous blog. Therefore it is still anonymous
• The three leaders that came in the “middle of the night” (from what I know, David Arcos and some other persons) came because there was accusations made against them (“them” being the mosaic leadership at the time) and came to actually apologize for anything they might have done and hear you guys out. You obviously are not interested in being pro-active in making changes happen (meetings, returning phone calls, e-mailing people who CAN effect change), so they wanted to begin the process. It’s funny how you and others spin it with words like “middle of the night” and harassing my “son”.
Look, I am not trying to be mean of facetious; I just know that this site has really become a boiling pot for people who have obviously been hurt. I think that restoration needs to be sought after with great passion. I just don’t think that this is a good venue to do that. Maybe we could start a discussion about how that could happen. And obviously simply calling for Erwin’s resignation is not a realistic situation. Let’s think of pro-active solutions, rather than just sit and create a pool of self-pity and anguish.
I agree 100% with Yvonne on her reply to "Mosaic of Love".
Btw, MOL you are now consistently identifiable. It was just the "Anonymous" is used by many new users, so thank you for taking on an identity.
It is up to you if you want to use a screen name or your real one. Since I do not like visits in the middle of the night from "well-meaning" Mosaic leaders or the police...I choose to use a screen name.
February 22, 2007 12:36 PM
Mosaic Of Love said...
"The people that I have heard from WERE there with the transition with "Tom/Erwin and WERE there for the Robbie incident. Their info is not gossip, and more than yours is. If they choose to tell their story (as many of you have) then it is factual, right?"
All of us were there for the Tom incident and many for the Robbie one. We speak accordingly to the ones we were there for, only. Also, can you explain what you mean by the "Robbie incident"?
The accounts that you see up here are first hand. Robbie posted his first hand experience with what has happened to him. Then others comment on how they feel about his post. You, on the other hand come on here and tell us about what OTHER people told you at Mosaic. You can't see how different that is From here on, why don't you only post YOUR first hand experiences, not gossip. Or tell those that tell you those things to come post them here.
"These people have refused to go public with their stories because they don’t feel it necessary to bring up hurtful information that puts many of these events in context (i.e. moral failures, painful marriage situations, etc.). But maybe that needs to happen?"
YES, it should happen. There is zero fear with all of us here. Your threats do not concern us at all. I implore them to even.
"The MOP link leads to another anonymous blog. Therefore it is still anonymous"
Yes, it is still anonymous, but not confusing.
"The three leaders that came in the “middle of the night” (from what I know, David Arcos and some other persons) came because there was accusations made against them (“them” being the mosaic leadership at the time) and came to actually apologize for anything they might have done and hear you guys out. You obviously are not interested in being pro-active in making changes happen (meetings, returning phone calls, e-mailing people who CAN effect change), so they wanted to begin the process. It’s funny how you and others spin it with words like “middle of the night” and harassing my “son”."
MOL, since you mention David A, how about we add the other two. Janice S & Dave A.
Robbie has personally told me he is not interested in "talking". And he has stated that clearly on his blog as well.
"Let’s think of pro-active solutions, rather than just sit and create a pool of self-pity and anguish."
REPEAT. This is not about hurt people. It IS about calling for action when it comes to the abuses that have transpired over the years at Mosaic. And, yes that means Erwin resign, and any others who are involved in those abuses. This is very pro-active.
MOL
Even if what you say is true, that David Arcos and the other leaders went to Robbie's house unannounced to somehow hear them out and make amends, their efforts were undone completely by the events that followed. Whether or not their visit and the subsequent visit by the police are in deed connected, it reveals either an immense lack of discernment or a completely malicious attempt to silence David, no matter what the cost.
What people are asking for here is an open airing of the issues that have been relegated to only private, controlled conversations in the past. People who feel they have been bullied and silenced in the past don't want to receive unannounced visits and they don't like to be outnumbered.
There was a time when we regarded ourselves as brethren. We could sit down, one on one and bear our souls to each other. Now, a simple chance meeting and a word "between brothers", can get reported immediately to Eric Bryant or Erwin himself (and oft misreported at that). Has Mosaic become such a monolith unto itself that David Arcos cannot speak for himself, for his own personal dealings with others, to those who feel that he has offended them in some way? In mentioning Arcos, I don't mean to single him out. He just happens to be the one leader you mentioned. I have had no bad dealings with him and regard him to be one of the finer people I know, but if others have issues with him, let them speak to each other, but on equal terms. It doesn't help the dialogue to disfellowship people, brand them liars, bitter gossips, and (this is the best one) blasphemers, and then expect them to receive you into their homes for a "chat".
I feel as if I know David Arcos well enough to say that if he went to Robbie’s house of his own accord, his intentions were good, but the fact that his failed attempt was followed by a call to the police, why I am sure that he even cringes at the picture that paints.
Maybe if we write a song, a poem, some performance art... How bout a dance? Scratch that. Most would consider my dancing dangerous and I don't want to recieve a visit now do I.
I'll try to be brief:
"• Yvonne, so by your definition, what you have "heard" about what has happened to your dad and Robbie is second hand info and therefore gossip right?"
I never said second hand information was gossip. Remember my example about the cat? If the information is true, it's not gossip. Please re-read my post about gossip dated February 21, 2007 11:17 PM . I'm tired of repeating myself.
"From what I know, none of you have been on paid staff for years,.."
I was never on paid staff and have never claimed to be.
"... and therefore none of you were in meetings about Robert’s retirement..."
True, I wasn't there but I've had conversations with my father about what was said and based on my father's character I believe he told me the truth.
"... or were there the night when people came to meet with Robbie…"
Again, I wasn't there but the FACT that it happened is not in dispute here.
"...so by YOUR definition it is gossip."
Please see above.
"The people that I have heard from WERE there with the transition with Tom/Erwin..."
Just for the record, you are referring to an incident that happened about 20 years ago. I'm willing to hear what others heard but so far the people you keep referring to have failed to show up to speak for themselves.
"...and WERE there for the Robbie incident. Their info is not gossip, and more than yours is. If they choose to tell their story (as many of you have) then it is factual, right?"
All I know of the so-called "Robbie incident" is what Robbie himself has shared. Again, if people wish to add their comments on what they were told by leadership regarding this incident, I hope they will do so.
• These people have refused to go public with their stories because they don’t feel it necessary to bring up hurtful information that puts many of these events in context (i.e. moral failures, painful marriage situations, etc.).
Wow, this is a fascinating statement. You say that the reason "other" people have refused to go public with their stories is because they feel it's unnecessary to "bring up hurtful information." Obviously you have NO such restraints.
In case you hadn't noticed, it was Robbie himself who brought up these issues in the first place so whose feelings are being protected?
By the way, "But maybe that needs to happen?" kinda sounds like a threat. A rather hollow threat since Robbie is the one who revealed his painful situation.
• The MOP link leads to another anonymous blog. Therefore it is still anonymous
I was under the impression that mopmember had already identified himself. Mopmember? Care to take this query? This particular question is out of my hands.
"The three leaders that came in the “middle of the night” (from what I know, David Arcos and some other persons) came because there was accusations made against them (“them” being the mosaic leadership at the time) and came to actually apologize for anything they might have done and hear you guys out."
You obviously are not interested in being pro-active in making changes happen (meetings, returning phone calls, e-mailing people who CAN effect change), so they wanted to begin the process. It’s funny how you and others spin it with words like “middle of the night” and harassing my “son”."
MOL,
I know the identity of the three leaders who showed up at Robbie's house, I'm sure I'm not the only who does. For the sake of their privacy, I am not prepared to publicly identify the other two.
Let's get down to specifics:
These people showed up at Robbie's house on a Friday night between 9:30 and 10:00. They were unannounced. No effort was made to notify Robbie that anyone was coming over for the purpose of "apologizing" or "hearing you guys out." Since the visit was unexpected, Robbie was not home at the time. (How can that be his fault?)
The next day, Saturday, the POLICE showed up at Robbie's home to follow up on a complaint from the leadership at Mosaic regarding the original MOP website. The police were given some sort of story about Mosaic being concerned that an individual might pose a threat to himself or the congregation. (Suicidal or homicidal)
That is a SERIOUS ALLEGATION.
If the police had felt the threat was legitimate, there would have been an arrest made. Obviously, they didn't take it seriously since no one was arrested.
Now I ask you, given these FACTS would YOU be "interested in being pro-active in making changes happen (meetings, returning phone calls, e-mailing people who CAN effect change)" if such tactics had been used against YOU? How can this event being anything other than what it looks like?
A lot of people go to bed around 10 pm (I know I often do) so it's not unreasonable to think of such a late hour as being "in the middle of the night." It certainly is an odd hour for anyone to be making a social call, especially under these circumstances.
Robbie's son IS his son. Where's the spin on that?
To end this post you wrote:
"Look, I am not trying to be mean of facetious; I just know that this site has really become a boiling pot for people who have obviously been hurt. I think that restoration needs to be sought after with great passion. I just don’t think that this is a good venue to do that. Maybe we could start a discussion about how that could happen. And obviously simply calling for Erwin’s resignation is not a realistic situation. Let’s think of pro-active solutions, rather than just sit and create a pool of self-pity and anguish."
At least you admit people have been hurt. As for the rest of this statement, it has all the sincerity of an apology given by someone who has just bashed you over the head and then said, "Oops, I'm sorry, can we still be friends?"
Yvonne
P.S. Please stop calling my father to complain about me.
Yvonne,
I find it interesting that you have so much passion about this whole situation. I remember you back at the Church on Brady. You sat near the back, rarely smiled or talked to anyone. You did not look very happy being there.
With all due respect as a past Share Group Leader, I find it odd that you are so zealous on this issue when you really seemed quite indifferent at the time.
Mosaic of Love,
Common courtesy says call before you knock. Robbie was not home, but his children were. One of the visitors called the next day and Robbie did speak to him (He mentioned this in his most recent blog).
The problem many on this blog have is with Erwin and his theology.(My husband, Jacob, mentioned some of those in his post under Robbies "Bitterness" blog) I was in leadership when Tom Wolf and Linda were asked to leave our church. My husband and I both had embraced Erwin as our pastor. Tom and Linda were members of our church in our eyes. We, and it sounds like many others, were in disbelief and our spirits were not at peace with their (Erwin and other elders) presentation of their side of the story. I remember they likened their actions to that used by corporations (which did not sit well with me) I know there is a trascript somewhere, I sure would like to review it. I'll tell you what, I did my best to keep notes but could not keep up. I can tell you this though, the pride and ego displayed by all the men on stage was suffocating. My heart was pounding so hard because I was so troubled. This was not the Erwin I had known and laughed with. I kept trying to rationalize away what common sense was telling me. I say these things to you because I want you to know that it was me giving Erwin and the others the benefit of the doubt. Also, why was this the first I had heard of their so called conflict with Tom. Shouldn't it have been brought to the body's attention before he was asked to leave ? When my husband did eventually get a meeting with Erwin (he had to now go through proper channels to get even that)he was surprised to see that Erwin had brought others without giving my husband prior knowledge of this. An act of intimidation and manipulation as far as I'm concerned. (Two of those in the room were Robbie (a friend of both Erwin and Jacob's) and Robert. ) We were very confused. Confusion has no place with God. Also, after that we lacked the courage to approach Erwin. We did not want to be labeled as troublemakers and Tom Wolf followers. It wasn't about following anyone. It was about the lack of peace in our hearts. It was about coming away from church service empty. We saw and impressive spectacle, but empty, nonetheless.
I peruse the Mosaic website and I am confused. Why all the technical and fancy words? I am in the art world (theater to be exact) and when I go to church I go to be charged with the Word of God, to Worship Him, and for fellowhip. Poetic dances are entertaining but by no means encourage me to be a light in the darkness.
I do not intend for this to be gossip. Erwin is a public figure and has made himself the spokesman for christianity (what it lacks and what it should be) Many of us (not just ex-Mosaic members, but other christians across this nation, perhaps the globe)take issue with his words and actions.
...Kimberly Aguilar
Wow Kim, thanks for sharing. I can tell you that I was feeling just what you described that night Erwin told us about Brother Tom, but I don't think I could have expressed it better than you just did.
Anonymous said...
Yvonne,
I find it interesting that you have so much passion about this whole situation. I remember you back at the Church on Brady. You sat near the back, rarely smiled or talked to anyone. You did not look very happy being there.
With all due respect as a past Share Group Leader, I find it odd that you are so zealous on this issue when you really seemed quite indifferent at the time.
With all due respect! Apparently you don't think much respect is due to Yvonne. Meow, which share group did you lead and was it church sanctioned? With all due respect.
"Yvonne,
I find it interesting that you have so much passion about this whole situation. I remember you back at the Church on Brady. You sat near the back, rarely smiled or talked to anyone. You did not look very happy being there.
With all due respect as a past Share Group Leader, I find it odd that you are so zealous on this issue when you really seemed quite indifferent at the time."
ROTFL!!!!
Oh please! Is this the best you can do? I'm now 44. When I was a share group leader I was in my early 20's. I like to think I've matured since then.
May I ask why you persist in trying to goad me?
Yvonne
Anonymous said...
Yvonne,
I find it interesting that you have so much passion about this whole situation. I remember you back at the Church on Brady. You sat near the back, rarely smiled or talked to anyone. You did not look very happy being there.
With all due respect as a past Share Group Leader, I find it odd that you are so zealous on this issue when you really seemed quite indifferent at the time.
I find it interesting that the very same people that choose to represent Mosaic (And choose to hide behind names like Anonymous or Mosaic leadership – on the original
MOP – or whatever you choose to cal yourself) are the ones that feel the need to attack
those that are posting their own experiences. Who cares what Yvonne did or where she sat. Is this the best you can do? Don't you see that you only make the church that we
loved and gave our hearts and live to look more like a joke then a refuge for hurting people? Grow up coward.
"With all due respect as a past Share Group Leader, I find it odd that you are so zealous on this issue when you really seemed quite indifferent at the time."
With all due respect, Anonymous, I find it odd that you are NOT zealous over this issue. You were a member of Brady, a center of great biblical teaching and now you go to Mosaic, a church that sits in the rubble of broken leaders and false teaching? A church that is led by a man who travels the country while Rome is burning? And yet there you are sitting in condemnation over someone's...passion? For shame. You question people's passion and their pain. I'll ask you a question. Have you stopped and asked ANYTHING of your leader Erwin? And has he stopped and for one moment asked himself out loud, "Could I have done something, anything different?" Has he had a moment, just a moment of self-reflection over all this? Or has it been all, "call the police," "remind them of Robbie's failed marriage" "remind them of all the money Robert got," "tell them we basically own Mott." Tell, me honestly, we already know some of our failings. You, Mosaic of Love, Tiffany, and all the other Anonymouses are constantly reminding us of them. But has that man, Mr. McManus showed just a moment of vulnerability in the last month? Come on, really, Anonymous, now be honest...
"With all due respect as a past Share Group Leader, I find it odd that you are so zealous on this issue when you really seemed quite indifferent at the time."
With all due respect, Anonymous, I find it odd that you are NOT zealous over this issue. You were a member of Brady, a center of great biblical teaching and now you go to Mosaic, a church that sits in the rubble of broken leaders and false teaching? A church that is led by a man who travels the country while Rome is burning? And yet there you are sitting in condemnation over someone's...passion? For shame. You question people's passion and their pain. I'll ask you a question. Have you stopped and asked ANYTHING of your leader Erwin? And has he stopped and for one moment asked himself out loud, "Could I have done something, anything different?" Has he had a moment, just a moment of self-reflection over all this? Or has it been all, "call the police," "remind them of Robbie's failed marriage" "remind them of all the money Robert got," "tell them we basically own Mott." Tell, me honestly, we already know some of our failings. You, Mosaic of Love, Tiffany, and all the other Anonymouses are constantly reminding us of them. But has that man, Mr. McManus showed just a moment of vulnerability in the last month? Come on, really, Anonymous, now be honest...
This is so sad. How has it come to this? What can be done? If I could take on your pain, your sorrow, the hurt that you have endured, I would gladly. After all, that is what our Savior did for us. Since love never fails I want to do what ever is necessary to right these wrongs that are being listed here. I understand you are hesitant to meet privately, can we all meet as a group? Let’s meet and pray and ask God to help us all understand each other’s position. Surely, He can help us work this out.
That is what I would post here if I were part of a church at the receiving end of something like this. I could never feel comfortable in a church that was accused of abusing so many. I really could not be defensive about something like this. How is anyone at the “church” – God’s church able to be combative over this? I really do not understand it.
Eddie Marshall
Anonymous,
With all due respect, I had the opportunity to work with Yvonne on stage for "Parable Theater" and let me tell you she played one rockin' Sarah. Perhaps she needed to step away from your beloved church to flourish.
...Kimberly Aguilar
STOP!!!! Everyone... please.. go back up and re-read Eddie Marshall's last post again (Eddie Marshall February 22, 2007 9:17 PM ). That is it! Please re-read and if we can focus at this point on what he is saying. We are zig zagging moving forward but his words puts us closer on track.
Okay, after reading all the comments, I need to put my five cent in. I will begin by asking one question to all the "anonymous" Mosaic members:
Why all the fear to give your names? Could it be it might get you in trouble with Erwin? Are you afraid of the implications of getting involved in this conversation? Does that controlling "ethos" not bother you in the slightest?
Frank pointed out the "Logic" lesson, so I won't. However, this is precisely what is wrong with Mosaic's tactics. Yvonne has made some very strong arguments. But that does not seem to be relevant to Mosaic's people commenting here. Instead, you divert the attention from Erwin to her. You also seem to never answer questions when asked. You simply change the subject.
Through all the comments, threats, and labels you have thrown to those who have shared their painful experiences here, there is only one thing to ask:
WHEN WILL YOU BE WILLING TO LISTEN?
It seems like every time I come to these comments, Mosaic members are not listening. We are not trying to “hurt” anyone. Many of you Mosaic “anonymous” writers may not believe us. However, please be assured that we are speaking out because we care not only for those hurt in the past, but those who are current members that may be hurt in the future. If I see someone get hurt in the past, am I to simply forget that injustice and “turn the other cheek?” Or should I stand for what is right and good? What would Jesus have us do?
“Anonymous,” I believe that you (along with the other anonymous’) are unwilling to reveal yourself because of fear. Again, does that not bother you?
Soli Deo gloria!
no one is listening because all of this is doing no good! Nothing is being done by this website besides
1. Informing people of your pain
2. Telling people your stories about what happened to you
3. Discussing your opinions about Erwin being a tyrant, narcissist, heretic, etc.
4. Calling for "action" by Mosaic
Nothing here is really being accomplished, outside of your circle. Contrary to thought, this site isn't a big controversy at Mosaic. No one is talking about it or leaving Mosaic over it. No one is really being "informed of the truth" by checking up on this site. For every ten of your posts, you have one person making a response to contradict.
Do something that will move towards resolution, or this is all pointless. (Yes I know, "we don't want to meet with big-bad Erwin", "we have already tried", "why would we put ourselves back there")
Reading the umitigated anger, sideways logic, and unsubstantiated comments on this site reminds me of the words of Shakespeare: "...full of sound and fury, signifying nothing."
And this from St. Paul: "Let us stop biting and devouring one another, lest we be consumed by each other."
Ryan,
My heart aches after reading your post. I guess we don't matter. I guess no one is listening. No one cares about the hurt and pain, I guess until your hurt. We should just shut up and go away. Since no one is listening. But I would like to clarify one thing. If I hurt you Ryan, I would ask you to forgive me. But we're small fish, we don't matter. Your right. That big-bad Erwin is just too powerful. Why should he ask for forgiveness? He's Erwin. He has taught you well. The pain passes on to the next generation. I once called Mosaic home. I now know I could never go home and I weep. JC
Galations 1:6-10
I am amazed that you are so quickly departing Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel;
which is really not another;only there are some who are disturbing you, and want to distort the gospel of Christ.
But even though we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to that which we have preached to you, let him be accursed.
As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to that which you received, let him be accursed.
For am I now seeking the favor of men, or of God? Or am I striving to please men? If I were still trying to please men, I would not be a bond-servant of Christ.
If we don't speak out someone else will. Jacob
woah, woah, woah... who said anything about not caring about you or trying to silence you? All I am saying is that there is no "end" or resolve to this site. You can continue to interview people about their pain, do book reviews as they come out, maybe find a handful of others who have had the same experience. But looking long-term, this isn't going to bring resolution to anything. In the end you will have alot of hurt people telling their stories on the web.
If any one of us felt that this was a means in which something could be accomplished, then maybe you would get a better response.
Ryan,
The response has been amazing. Hundreds check in a day and Thousands have looked at the site. And Mosaic leadership is obsessing with this form of communication. HOw do we know, look at their behavior last weekend as an example. I know I hope they'll be a time that there is an open forum where we can shrare our hurts and that Erwin will listen and repent. And then step down. I know you spoke out on the process. Just don't know the true effectiveness. And many people are speaking about this at Mosaic. And many will continue...
I have a suggestion. Why not have the moderator screen out all blog entries without the person's real name. That might keep this conversation a lot more civilized almost as though we were all in the same room together in person. I know its probably breaking all kinds of blogging rules....but oh well. I think in order to come to a resolution here, both sides are going to have to take this matter more seriously. What do you think Chris?
Matt Shriver
Ryan,
Based upon your words:
"Nothing here is really being accomplished, outside of your circle. Contrary to thought, this site isn't a big controversy at Mosaic. No one is talking about it or leaving Mosaic over it. No one is really being "informed of the truth" by checking up on this site."
Ryan, you should just go away and not come back here. It is a useless exercise so do not take up the band width needed to post your comments.
And, if you do post anymore then it would seem that there is something here to dialogue about. No?
Matt, please understand that many of us are not comfortable using our names. Some who have posted here have already been disfellowshiped and cannot even meet with or have a conversation with long time friends at Mosaic because people have been instructed to have nothing to do with Robbie or anybody else who has posted here. If you don't believe me, ask around. I don't want to lose decade long friendships because lay leaders at Mosaic have been told to have nothing to do with me. What do you think? Are you ready to end a long time friendship because you have been ordered to?
I hope L and the kids are well.
Thanks for posting
Eddie (February 22, 2007 9:17 PM)
Thank you, that makes sense to me (why not others?). What you stated is what my prayers are for all involved.
Cris (February 22, 2007 9:35 PM)
I second that....everyone should go back...focus...read....and don't forget to pray.
~Christine
Matt
Anonymity affords one the ability to speak the truth in love without fear of being banished or being removed from a staff position where one can truly make a difference.
Nobody is truly anonymous in this kingdom.
Anonymous said...
"Matt, please understand that many of us are not comfortable using our names. Some who have posted here have already been disfellowshiped and cannot even meet with or have a conversation with long time friends at Mosaic because people have been instructed to have nothing to do with Robbie or anybody else who has posted here. If you don't believe me, ask around. I don't want to lose decade long friendships because lay leaders at Mosaic have been told to have nothing to do with me. What do you think? Are you ready to end a long time friendship because you have been ordered to?"
My response: Well, I guess I will find out Sunday. If anyone approaches me about this be warned. You will receive a bear hug and a huge holy, wet kiss. Bring it on Mosaic!!!
But seriously, I'll keep you posted.
Matt Shriver
Have people really been instructed to have nothing to do with Robbie or anybody else who has posted here?
Rumor has it that many at Mosaic have been told to keep an eye open for Robbie there, because he could be "dangerous".
Oncoming Traffic said...
Have people really been instructed to have nothing to do with Robbie or anybody else who has posted here?
Find out for yourself. Call a friend who is in leadership and ask them if they want to get together with you and Robbie for a little talk. Call a buddy and invite them to play some golf with you and Cris Aguilar and see what happens. I know Frank Loiza won't be invited to the beach party this year.
Matt Shriver, you my man are a Barbarian! (in a good way)
Anonymous said...
Rumor has it that many at Mosaic have been told to keep an eye open for Robbie there, because he could be "dangerous".
The world is protected by dangerous men, good men, but none the less dangerous.
sd
Luther was dangerous.
Martin not Lex. Lex was dangerous too, but in a bad way.
Wounds from a sincere friend are better than many kisses from an enemy.
Proverbs 27:6 (New Living Translation)
I hope Erwin has a friend on staff. He probably really needs one about now.
So if I call my family they wont talk to me? My family thinks i'm evil? I'm confused, am I bad?
I don't know what to feel anymore. This is so painful and now you are saying no one care. Why does life suck? I can't take much more. THis hurts so much. Why does God not help me undesrstand why this is all happening? Why does my family not believe me? Why does mosaic tell people I am bad?
dt,
You're not bad. You are "inconvenient".
In response to what Matt Shriver said on February 23, 2007 11:28 AM
Matt, I appricate your thoughts and as far as blog rules there are many ways of working a blog and forcing people to use their names is an option. There are many issues (some of which have already been stated) with that so for now I will leave it as is.
dt,
The truth is that it is a lot of work for a church to accept people the way they are. Loving us when we are unlovable is hard work, and very difficult at times. Very few churches have what it takes to do this on a regular bases. Only God can do this. Only He can love us unconditionally. From time to time a church finds it in themselves to not label those that disagree with them as "bad" or "difficult" and just love the sinner in us. That is much of what this is about for me. The Church on Brady aspired to do that. They didn't always do it, but they tried as much as they could. In my opinion that is not an aspiration of Mosaic. So, if you look for it with them, you will most likely go away sad and discouraged.
dt, you need to look to God only on this one.
Eddie Marshall
I'd welcome a comment from Arcos, Auda, or Janice about now.
DT. Everybody you see here posting cares fore one reason or another, and I can garauntee you that many more people who have not yet read these postings would care if they only knew. I am sure that your posting weighs heavy on the hearts of certain staffers who would reach out if they could do so without being out of line. We know how much you gave of yourself to Mosaic. Love is not always returned in kind, but your efforts were not meaningless. You are stronger than you know. You have develped in ways many of us never will because we have not known your difficulties. Take heart, you do not stand alone.
Love you DT, and my prayes are for PP
Hey everyone,
My name is Jimmy Duke and I have been in leadership at Mosaic for a long time. Unfortunately, I began attending Mosaic in 1998, so I didn't have the pleasure of meeting a lot of you since I believe it was around that time in which many of you either left over the Bro. Tom situation or maybe were a part of Robbie's church plant in Pasadena. I do, however, know some of you such as David Torres and Ruben, both of whom I always felt like I had a good if not distant relationship with. Admittedly, I have not kept in contact with either of you since back "in the day", but I always thought both of you were great guys.
I have been reading this site and the similar sites that many of you have created, and I have been struggling for awhile on whether or not I should post. Not because I was afraid (which frankly that accusation is pretty silly), but because I wasn't sure if participating in this forum was valuable or not. And to be honest, I'm still not sure.
I'm going to be completely honest with all of you...I love Erwin McManus. I love him as a person, as a pastor, as a spiritual mentor, and as a good friend. I love my church, Mosaic, and I love how God has used this community to spur growth in my knowledge and love for Him and for others.
I say all that not to dismiss any of you who have had different experiences, but just to offer a different perspective. My life experience has been diametrically opposed to many of you on this blog, and that truly saddens me. Not that I haven't experienced pain and anger and frustration myself. I have. But in different contexts.
I gave my life to Christ at the ripe old age of 6, and I have been in church my whole life. I've had the pleasure to sit under the ministry and leadership of some of the most well-known and respected ministers of the Gospel in the world. And I can say with all earnestness that I include Mosaic and Erwin in that esteemed group.
It grieves me deeply to see the pain and anger displayed on these pages. To be honest, it's a bit overwhelming. The various things written on these sites have made me run through a gamut of emotions. I've gotten angry, sad, depressed, discouraged, and even a little cross-eyed from reading the small print. How to respond? Should I respond? What to respond? So much has been written...where to begin? Can I even contribute to a genuine dialogue? Am I really just walking into the middle of a mud fight?
Well...here's risking getting dirty!
First off, I know different people have different experiences, and I am not going to attempt to speak for anyone else unless they ask me to. But I have never been told to "keep quiet". And I assure you, if you knew me, you would know that I am the first one people would say that to. I've got a pretty big mouth! There is no conspiracy of silence. There is however genuine sadness and confusion. And I think a lot of feelings like mine in not knowing how to address all these accusations and questions. But like I said before, I'm not going to try and speak for anyone else, so let me just say that I have been genuinely sad and confused.
Let me try and address a few other things...
The Bad Theology Issue...if this is what some of you believe, then this issue probably deserves its own page for discussion. Some of you feel Mosaic has drifted away from the Scriptures, and are convinced we are doing unGodly, unBiblical things. Well...I know some of you believe this to be true, but what if I believed the opposite? What if I believed we were doggedly pursuing God's truth and love through his Word as a community more so than ever. I'm afraid that by challenging this thought, many of you may automatically dismiss me as some sort of unGodly heretic, and then we can no longer have a discussion. I hope that isn't the case. Many of you have some strong opinions on this subject, as do I. My hope and prayer is that we could address this issue in some way that would be honoring to God. I'm not sure a blog is the answer. But that just might be because I'm too busy to check these sites everyday and too lazy to write that much all the time.
Yvonne, I don't know you, but I know Robert Martinez, and I love him to death. I respect him deeply. When Robert is ready to speak publicly about his situation, he will, and I will listen. Until then, I choose not to comment on private conversations between daughter and father. But no matter what he says, I will always love him and support him in whatever way I can.
David Torres...I love you buddy. God's never given up on you, so don't give up on him. You obviously have a lot of friends that are on these sites who love you and want to help you and support you.
Matt Shriver...You were in the first small group I was ever a part of at Mosaic. You were a blessing to me then, and you still are now. I really appreciated what you wrote. If we see each other this Sunday, you can hug me, but please no kisses! I don't like sloppy seconds.
So...now that all that has been said, let me say one more thing. If you have been hurt by someone or something in the Mosaic community, I am listening. I hear you loud and clear. Now please hear me...as difficult and dark as this stuff feels, God is way bigger than all of it. And if I personally have done something or not done something to offend or hurt any of you, I humbly ask for your forgiveness.
So now what? Where do we go from here? I don't know. Maybe some of you would say that since I wasn't a part of Church on Brady, I don't really have much to contribute to the conversation. I hope that isn't the case.
Here's my suggestion, if you want, a group of you could meet me in a public place. We could discuss any and every issue you wish. I am ready, willing and able to listen and act. I would not be representing anyone except myself in the meeting. Like I said before, I wouldn't be presumptous enough to try and speak on Erwin or anyone else's behalf. Much less the entire Mosaic community. But I would love to contribute as little or as much as I am given the chance to.
Sincerely,
Jimmy Duke
jimmy@mosaic.org
Jimmy Duke,
Thank you for your well thought out comment, and your heart on this. I believe you when you say you would like to help with the situation.
First, "Apple +" that is what you push on a Mac to enlarge the font (not sure what it is on a PC). The font on these blogs is way too small! :)
To clarify, this blog was in the formation process, as well as Robbie's long before what happened with Robert Martinez transpired. So, even though he is talked about here (probably because it is a similar situation to some in the past, and it is current) that isn't exactly what all of this is about. Just an FYI reminder for all. Also, I think this blog and any others about this issue, are getting off track when it questions the theology of a group. That would require, well volumes of books; like most seminaries have already. So, agreed, let’s not go there.
To more important issues. You mentioned that you were not present during the COB days. That's not a problem. This is more about the ears to hear, than the history to understand. And, it is more about the transition from COB to Mosaic. And the result of that transition to both eras. I truly believe that those who are at Mosaic now, that includes Erwin, would probably be moving on their path to being the church they want to be - without the questions being raised here - if Mosaic did not slowly and deliberately kill off a vibrant and thriving church to start Mosaic.
I know there are many at Mosaic that say COB was not a growing church. Numbers wise that might have been true. But it was about much more than that. Much more. COB was a church that trained up leaders, missionaries, loving examples of Christ’s love for the world. It probably had reached its zenith in the size department, but it was making up for it in the zeal department. And, if a pastor desires to start a church with what he believes a church should look like, then he should START a church like that.
If that transition would have occurred because the long term members wanted to change it to something different, that would be one thing. But, an outsider came in and said, “I am going to make this a better church.” That word “better” is some of what this is about. More important are the methods that were used to make it better. Systematically removing respected and trusted leaders that did not agree with Erwin’s interpretation of “better”. Shunning any and all that questioned those removals. And finally, the deception and abuses of power.
Jimmy, I do not know you, but I can already tell I would like you. So, if you want to meet with us about addressing the deception and abuse of power that has occurred over the years at Mosaic, I am the first to say, “Which Starbucks?”
Eddie Marshall
Mosaic of Love,
William Carey University OWNS Mott Auditorium.
Remember you said, "Mosaic now basically owns Mott auditorium"
And I said, I would check into that. Well, Mosaic "rents" Mott Auditorium.
Jimmy,
I also thank you for your comment. I personally believe that this forum is fine to post theological questions until another blog is put up. You can't help but come away with the fact that Erwin is Emerging Church. I do understand that there is a blog that will be up in the next few days focusing more on not only Erwin's theology missteps, but also the ohter members of the movement (I understand that they don't work together, but it sounded good)The blog will also encourage the church to return to "Orthodoxy"(stick to the book). So just be patient until it goes up. I know you don't see it, but its a little clearer when you step away.
Jimmy,
I too appreciate your comments and the civility in which they were written. That also goes for Matt Shriver - Jake and I miss you and your wife.
Eddie, You are a breath of fresh air. Your words bring peace and hope, thank you.
Regarding theology, I too have heard a separate blog is in the works. God willing it will be up in a week or so.
I do have to say, though, I feel how some have been treated by Mosaic is symptomatic of it's theology.
God Bless,
Kimberly Aguilar
Jimmy,
Thank you. I haven't had a moment to respond even though I have wanted to and am glad I have had the time to reflect.
You said... Well...here's risking getting dirty!
It says a lot about you for being willing to jump into what could be an ugly mess. I believe I am doing right by God with my role, under the circumstances, and appreciate your willingness to contribute.
Being this site’s administrator I can tell you I feel a great sense of responsibility with each and every post, each and every link, etc. When tempers flair it can distract us from the issues at hand, but I am glad you have been able to see through that and see our pain. So many for so long have tried to confront Erwin and the elders privately and have been systematically had their issues ignored, have had them isolated and eventually set them aside. Others left simply because they saw that this leadership group was not going to be questioned. This has been very painful for us considering all that we invested, all the relationships and the idea that we were duped in so many ways.
I told the ladies at my dentist Thursday afternoon that every time I go there it’s as though they beat me up. The dentist and these ladies look so innocent but they do a number on me each time I go. They laughed and reminded me that it was all for my good. Sometimes it is very painful, very difficult before it gets better. I hope and pray the pain subsides and it gets better, much better.
I am open to meeting with you.
Cris
crisraguilar@gmail.com
"Though I squeeze the arms of the Dentist's chair, the drill drills on."
C.S. Lewis
Just wondering. Did anyone meet with Jimmy Duke?
Jimmy,
please, don't add insult to injury by saying you love me. This really is not about my personal relationship with any few individuals but rather for me it is about my personal experience with mosaic as a whole. What your church has done to me is disgusting, and you know it. During my life I have endured physical abuse, sexual abuse, I have been betrayed, beaten and then abounded yet it is the nightmares of my time at mosaic that have kept me up at night. Just last night I had five nightmares about mosaic and mosaic staff. In one nightmare mosaic staff found me in a park and pushed my head into the dirt, demanding that I repent. These types of dreams have gone on for three years now, I am afraid to leave my house, I am afraid to answer the phone, and now even answer the door. I am not an aggressive person and all of you who know me know that this is true. You know I want to be at peace and that I don’t want to hurt people. You know that I want to be a good man.
How sickening it makes me to hear you encourage me to trust in God. Just because mosaic has acted so cruel does not mean my faith in Christ has diminished. Let me be clear, I do not blame God for how mosaic has treated me.
Mosaic has terrorized me for so long now and I have done everything to put your community behind me. You and your friends have made me out to be a monster because it serves your interest. How dare you say you love me. Mosaic has taken so much from me, even my family. But for my family this is not the first time they have stood by quietly and said nothing well I was treated unfairly.
I will write once more about all of this later tomorrow on this blog. I want to put mosaic far behind me and begin to rebuild my life. I feel no one truly cares what has taken place here and I can do nothing more to change that. At least now I know that I can one day stand before God and say I did not stay silent while evil occurred.
David Torres.
I have not meet with Jimmy. I have not been contacted by him. I just emailed him so he has my contact info.
Besides posting a response to Jimmy's invitation to meet, I e-mailed that response to him last week, also. Have not heard anything since.
EM
How do you plan on being heard when people respond the way David did to those at Mosaic who are actually wanting to hear you and reach out? I think that response says alot about what most people really want here.
Anonymous,
do you think Jimmy was trying to reach out? Jimmy hasn't called me or emailed me once in years to “reach out”. Funny that now he decides to write something encouraging to me in this public blog so everyone can see. By the way, have you read this posting(i didn’t write it): http://wherethebrokenfalltopieces.blogspot.com/.
Can you guess which person in it is Jimmy Duke?
Tell me, what is it “most people really want here”?
Why don’t you tell me who you are anonymous? Do we know each other? Are we related? Have I done a video for you? Did I do your wedding video?
M. Torres
Jimmy Duke,
I don't know you. But I would love to meet with you as well.
Please add me to your invite list.
A Denny's or a Starbucks would be fine. Thanks for your post.
Monday nights or Sunday Afternoons are best for me.
You sound like a reasonable guy.
Frank Loaiza
frankloaiza@gmail.com
Hasty Generalization:
"Hasty generalization, also known as fallacy of insufficient statistics, fallacy of insufficient sample, fallacy of the lonely fact, leaping to a conclusion, hasty induction, law of small numbers, unrepresentative sample or secundum quid, is the logical fallacy of reaching an inductive generalization based on too little evidence. It commonly involves basing a broad conclusion upon the statistics of a survey of a small group that fails to sufficiently represent the whole population. Statistics in general can have many problems, especially in surveys where the questions can assume too much, be too vague, or be too misleading."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hasty_generalization
Just Because David Torres, (he actually placed his name on his comment, unlike you)Feels this way does not mean that everyone on this blog feels the same way. Just like I love the MOSAIC people and love Erwin, doesn't mean that I feel the same way about everyone else at MOSAIC as I do about Erwin.
Please check your logic before you post. Let's try to be as rational , and honest as possible always in Love, but try not to use these fallacies. I will try the same.
Thanks,
Frank Loaiza
P.S. I'm not angry , just a bit fed up with the falacies I see from Anonymous. :-)
Also, why can't these Anonymous people "own up" to their opinions?
I appreciate that they are posting, but I would like them to show their faces. There's nothing to be afraid of I assure you.
Anonymous said...
How do you plan on being heard when people respond the way David did to those at Mosaic who are actually wanting to hear you and reach out? I think that response says alot about what most people really want here.
There are many "individuals" in here. Each should be counted for their own individual voice. No one person's voice is less important, or more important.
em
Would it be wrong of me to come to a "hasty generalization" by saying that a few here have had or hurtful experience with Erwin while hundreds have not, and therefore the consensus here is not accurate. After all it "involves basing a broad conclusion upon the statistics of a survey of a small group that fails to sufficiently represent the whole population."
Anonymous said...
Would it be wrong of me to come to a "hasty generalization" by saying that a few here have had or hurtful experience with Erwin while hundreds have not, and therefore the consensus here is not accurate. After all it "involves basing a broad conclusion upon the statistics of a survey of a small group that fails to sufficiently represent the whole population."
The gravity is not in the number of people offended, but the nature of the offense. Thousands of people had nothing but good dealings with Ted Haggard. One man knew another side of him. That was enough.
Trust is the critical foundation of any successful organization. Trust only grows in an environment in which individuals have character. If character is corrupt then perspective is distorted. This is clearly seen in the life of the narcissist. This distortion leads to mistrust. If you cannot trust the pastor, there will never be sustainable interpersonal relationships between pastor and staff and other leaders. This concept of character first is repeatedly reinforced in scripture—qualifications for deacons and elders focus mainly on character—nothing to do with seminary education or anointing. Once there is the breakdown of trust the foundation is lost for the church to maintain Biblical community. The concept of team is continually undermined. The net result is the effective witness of the church compromised.
- emphasis mine -
Eddie Marshall
P.S. If you have not read the article this came from, I once again, implore you to do so.
http://www.power2serve.net/narcissism_in_the_pulpit1.htm
I have yet to hear anything on this site, or the other blogs that merits Erwin's removal. Most comments here are vague, and the stories that are told are undoubtedly sad, but not to the degree of Ted Haggard or a priest molesting a kid (as you have suggested). Most of these are very bad experiences with someone or opinions over doctrine, not experiences that involve huge moral downfalls. Unless these allegations of sexual misconduct and misappropriations of funds are true, I see nothing over the edge here.
I am not trying to be apathetic or cold-hearted, there just isn't enough here to merit that strong of empathy. Can we explore the allegations of sexual misconduct and money misappropriation further?
I do not believe that anyone here is accusing anyone at Mosaic off any sexual misconduct. I personally cringe at the examples when they are used. However, they are only illustrations of how it does not matter if it is only a couple, or for that matter one individual that has been mistreated. The misappropriation of funds is fairly evident. When an organization raises funds for one purpose - in this case to purchase land and build on it - that money can ONLY be utilized to that end. It is sad that this has to be addressed here, but it does seem to be the case.
"Our church is not seeker sensitive; we're just equally insensitive to everyone."
- Erwin Raphael McManus
"Jesus was about people; not about sermons. He used sermons to help people. Sometimes I feel like I am the opposite."
- Erwin Raphael McManus
"Erwin is a huge Chapel Hill fan, even though he lives in LA (he graduated from UNC in 81). He told me that the UNC logo is the most popular emblem in LA, even over UCLA."
All of the above from:
http://jdgreear.typepad.com/my_weblog
scroll down to:
Whatever it takes: Erwin McManus
If you decide to quote anyone here, please try not to take the quote out of context to make someone out to who they are not.
I've heard Erwin say a few of these quotes over the years and some of them are said in a joking manner or to get the attention of the audience. After the comment, which in isolation sounds bad, he would go into more depth about the topic.
For example, the quote: "Our church is not seeker sensitive; we're just equally insensitive to everyone." is a joke. If Mosaic was really insensitive to everyone, why is the church constantly growing?
And the quote about UNC, Erwin's just being a fan of his school. Whoever posted this really shouldn't try to read into this anymore than that.
Thank you Jimmy for being the first of the Mosaic Core Staff to personally enter this debate. Based on what I have read and heard from people who are not only highly educated but also true followers of Christ, I think it would be inappropriate to meet with you in a casual environment. I'm just having trouble seeing a group of people sitting around you at Starbucks discussing these issues.
If you and/or Mosaic leadership want to truly see resolution and healing here, I think it more appropriate that Pastor Erwin and/or his staff contact the people who have listed their names in this discussion in order to address issues and facilitate healing. I think the least Mosaic can do is provide a place where these people, either individually or collectively.
If I read anything hear that seems to be a repetitive theme, it seems to be the lack of respect and trust amongst leaders and past staff. We all know how powerful Erwin's impact has been both here in LA and around the world. However, if his ministry is built on a foundation of mistrust and disrespect than the impact will probably be short lived and fruitless if these allegations are not addressed promply and appropriately.
"If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels but have not love I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbol." I Cor. 13
When someone has a problem with me I like to hash it out even if their issues are unfounded. If I am in the right than I have nothing to fear by meeting with them. If I am at fault, then I should be able to eventually see it and admit to it. Why does it seem that Erwin is the only one at Mosaic that asks the hard questions as heard in his many stories of meetings with other church and secular leaders around the country, i.e., Columbia University debates and the story about the church that wanted to be more racially diverse.
I would think that someone so skillful at asking the hard questions would himself be able to answer a few.
Anonymous said...
If you decide to quote anyone here, please try not to take the quote out of context to make someone out to who they are not.
I've heard Erwin say a few of these quotes over the years and some of them are said in a joking manner or to get the attention of the audience. After the comment, which in isolation sounds bad, he would go into more depth about the topic.
For example, the quote: "Our church is not seeker sensitive; we're just equally insensitive to everyone." is a joke. If Mosaic was really insensitive to everyone, why is the church constantly growing?
And the quote about UNC, Erwin's just being a fan of his school. Whoever posted this really shouldn't try to read into this anymore than that.
Did you take the time to go to the link where the qoutes came from?
"Got to spend about 6 hours today with one of the most innovative, creative thinkers in church--Erwin McManus...Here's a little list of things I gleaned from him today:
The quotes were given as sincere and true, not jokingly. You should probably contact that individual and straighten him out. And, before you make accusations, do your homework. This is a serious issue, all of you need to start SEEING it that way.
"However, if his ministry is built on a foundation of mistrust and disrespect than the impact will probably be short lived and fruitless if these allegations are not addressed promply and appropriately"
What do you do when there are two people who were a part of the same event. One says that mistrust and disrespect took place and the other doesn't. What happens when the impact continues to grow and fruit can be seen all over the world? Will those questions be addressed as well?
Ryan, you wrote:
"What do you do when there are two people who were a part of the same event. One says that mistrust and disrespect took place and the other doesn't. What happens when the impact continues to grow and fruit can be seen all over the world? Will those questions be addressed as well?"
The first two questions seem to be rhetorical. And the answer to the last is no. The impact is undeniable. However, if the allegations are not tackled aggressively the man and his ministry could become tarnished thus leading to negative impact.
"...If I have the gift of prophesy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I AM NOTHING." ICor.13
All I am asking for her is to take the conversation(s) to the next level with the man at the center of the controversy. As it seems, MOP is not going to go away by simply ignoring them.
This goes for MOP members as well. If you are unwilling to talk, than what is the point of Mosaic leaders attempting to reach out?
Bibleman
Bibleman wrote:
"This goes for MOP members as well. If you are unwilling to talk, than what is the point of Mosaic leaders attempting to reach out?"
Answer: What leaders? Not one Elder or Deacon has come forward to deal with this, let alone Erwin.
I'll go with that Bibleman. I think that people have hid behind this blog and used it as an excuse for contacting these people directly. I am ALL for discovering truth, but in order to do that you have to ENGAGE both parties in conversation. Here is a way to engage these people in conversation
Erwin@mosaic.org
Eric@mosaic.org
Dave@mosaic.org
David@mosaic.org
Dave@mosaic.org
Janice@mosaic.org
Ralph@mosaic.org
Rickey@mosaic.org
Rick@awaken.org
Let's actually begin to engage actual conversations with one another.
Sigh, I am going to share here my experience of dealing with taking meetings at Mosaic (for the third time) – I will add a bit more detail for those who have read some of this before, hoping to keep it interesting and not too redundant. And, hopefully, a bit more for the “Ryans” of the world to maybe open their eyes and understand that many of us have had similar “meetings” at Mosaic. How do I know that? First hand accounts from them, and a number or posts here.
In 1999 a missionary couple was at a regional retreat in Asia that Erwin was at, also. They asked Erwin why some long time members were leaving Mosaic. Mine and my wife’s name came up in this conversation. Erwin used some information that was given to him in private, saying that was why we had left Mosaic. Even though I had a meeting with him and Robert Martinez and told them the exact reason we were leaving prior to his telling our missionary friends another reason.
I had told Erwin it was because the way the Bro Thom situation was handled. I implored he and Robert to please address the way in which the church had handled the situation. They both said, no. I said we would not feel comfortable staying there and we would need to find fellowship elsewhere. I had this meeting in the first place at the prompting of a Mosaic Elder.
When my missionary friend phoned us, upset and crying from the field, believing that my marriage was doomed, based on what Erwin had told them, I phoned that same Elder to ask what he thought I should do. “This is very serious.” Was the message I left on his phone. He has, to this day, never contacted me back.
I scheduled another meeting with Erwin & Robert. By the time we met there were two false rumors that had been spread by Erwin about my wife and I. The second one concerned one of our children; that hit very close to home. Just the same, God gave me the grace to ask Erwin calmly and directly in the last meeting I had with he and Robert. Erwin denied both instances and contradicted what two of my most trusted and closest friends had told me he said. The only thing is, these twists of the truth could have only happened the way they did, by Erwin’s lips. And I have witnesses that can validate both situations.
Stunned by the blatant manipulation of the truth I tried to contact another Elder (you know who you are, I forgive you, but no longer trust you) and he too has never returned my call. Sadly, we left Mosaic, never to return.
Prior to all of this, my wife and I returned from Japan just as the Wolf “removal” was happening. I asked Thom Wolf to meet with me at a Starbucks. I knew that it was a very complex and difficult situation, but I figured I knew the Bro better than I did Erwin (which was the case). So, I challenged Thom to humble himself and ask forgiveness for any part in what happened. – I did this while trying to plug back into what we thought was still our home church – before I spoke with Erwin & Robert the first time. I could tell that Thom was hurt by my challenging him first, but I really felt, if anyone could turn the situation around it would be him.
Bro Thom told me first hand how the Mosaic leadership had mandated he could only meet with them alone; he was not allowed to bring anyone else with him. How he would not be allowed to speak. Only listen. (I confirmed that these stipulations were put upon Thom, by Mosaic, in my meetings with Erwin & Robert) Thom was very hurt, devastated. Now, ten years later, I see that I was wrong to expect him to be able to “fix” anything. Mosaic had stripped him of all dignity, any ability to try and make things right. 25 years of service and leadership were tossed aside.
In that first meeting with Erwin & Robert I asked them if they felt that the leadership had done anything wrong with the way it handled Thom. They both said, “Yes, if they could do it again they would do some things differently.” We talked about how Erwin felt uncomfortable that so many church members would come to him and say that Bro Thom advised differently. I agreed that if Erwin were the Senior Pastor then members should not be going to Bro Thom in that way. I asked if they had confronted Thom and/or the members that were doing it? They said they did not. And given the chance they would like to see Thom back in fellowship at Mosaic. And they would like to apologize publicly to him for that injustice, but Thom would not answer their letters. I suggested a way to do it, but they were not interested.
Some of you have painted a picture that the Wolfs are not that hurt or bothered by this. And Carol Davis has moved on, too. If that is the case, why have they never once been back to visit a place that they all served at and ministered to for over 75 cumulative years?
Mosaic,
If you deny your roots then you have none as a church. Please do not disrespect the many people that have invested the best years of their lives into your church. I do not believe any of us want to come back there; just the same we would like to believe that there is a shred of genuine gratitude for a legacy that you have inherited.
“A spiritual reference point East of downtown Los Angeles, and a sending base to the ends of the Earth.”
All of us would see the “ends of the Earth” to include, Pasadena, Beverly Hills, Chino and etc…
Eddie Marsahall
Eddie,
So what are you going to do about this to solve the problem? Post more blogs? Ask for more stories? And what good will that do? Create a bigger and badder web site? That will not accomplish the mission statement of this group. Do you see how is see this as a futile situation. I mean, I guess you could picket at the gatherings or bring legal charges. How do you plan on moving forward?
Two things,
1. Erwin and other elders have always spoken rather highly of The Church on Brady. Erwin has called it innovative and Progressive. Like I said, the worst they have ever said was that it was at a growth plateau.
2. Mosaic is STILL the SBC church with the most international workers on the field. They have churches in the alliance across the world. Mosaic's view extends FAR beyond the four venues.
Eddie, just answer me this: Are you willing to talk with the Mosaic leadership? If no, what do you plan to do?
Someone had two helping of the Kool-Aid. MH
Ryan,
I will assume you did not understand the comment I posted on the other comment section (even though you did reference it in one of your comments)
Ryan,
I did not realize you were the "official" spokesperson for Mosaic. I was scheduled to meet with a leader Thursday night. However, if I should be meeting with you then I will cancel that meeting and what?
Eddie Marshall
OMG! Eddie, you should not be meeting with me, which is exactly why I put OTHER'S email addresses. These people are the ones accused, these people can make change happen. This isn't rocket science.
I am glad you are meeting with someone tomorrow. I think that shows that you are actually moving towards action and not passive aggressiveness.
Ryan, did you not read Eddie's post? You won't even address the Bro Tom situation. You claim to know him so well but you have not asked him his opinion. You are here to divide not to listen. If God himself revealed the truth to you, you would try to find a way to dismiss it. You don't have ears to hear or eyes to see. I believe your are a plant.
You said I am ALL for discovering truth
You have the relationships to pursue the truth but you don't want to go there because you don't want to find that the truth is different than what you want to believe. Eddie shared a very personal story of lies, betrayal, and a cover up that has not been addressed to this day. You have no compassion. You have no credibility as a truth seeker.
Ryan, I highly suggest that you do your own homework about a lot of issues that have come out and are about to come out. I am saying this because I know you well (however, we havent talked in about four years) and I think you are a reasonable person. I know you are hearing a lot from Erwin and staff, but please, make a few phone calls about these specfic issues in particular: the Bro Tom debacle, and Believing the Impossible. Believe me, you're not going to like what you will find out, but you will find out the documented proof. "Facts are stubborn things." ---Frank Gaffney
************
************
************
The conversation has been moved over one page, which is called Primary Aim - Mission Statement. Click the following link to continue on:
Next Page Click Here
Let me start with a disclaimer: I have been living out of state for years, now, and have not been a member of Mosaic for a long time.
Having said that, I am saddened by the general bitterness and wrath that people seem to be holding on to in this blog. Mosaic was my home church for many years, and I was part of a church plant in Pasadena that horribly disillusioned me. The experience lead to my mistrust in church leadership and ultimately distanced me from the church. However, I blame NO ONE for that circumstance. Each person who I felt "failed me" in the process was truely doing what he/she felt was the right thing to do. It is so hard to live up to the standards we hold our pastors to. Perfection is an unfair expectation. Pastors are not God. They are not perfect counselors - sometimes they don't know what to say, they handle things badly, or they simply mess up in a situation.
God has not put you in the hands of your pastor. What I read here is so similar to the attitudes that still make me leary of the church. I find it ironic. Complaints and rants of the shortcomings of church leaders (which mainly include their pointint out your shortcomings). When does it stop?
God accepts me. He takes me for who I am - sin and all. He is the most merciful personality that has ever existed. Knowing I am accepted frees me to accept others - even when something they have done hurts or confuses me.
I will always love Mosaic. I will always love all of you that I knew when I was a member there - whether you still love Mosaic or not. I was never very close to Pastor Erwin, but he once did something that made me respect him as a human being. Pastor is just one part of a man. I am aware that he is not a social dynamo, just like you are, but I don't think you can expect that from someone whose personality contradicts it.
It hurts to read so many people's feelings of anger, regret, and pain that they still hold on to after all this time. That must weight so heavy on you. I hope you can let that go. I hope you can learn to love and forgive these people that you focus on so much, even now that they are out of your lives.
Every Christian is my brother. Every member of my family is MY FAMILY. You included. I still miss some of you. I still miss Mosaic.
And my heart is breaking for you. It really is. This site makes me so sad. Please forgive them. Please let it all go. Please move on.
I don't mean any hurt or disrespect with this post. It's just that so many of us have lost each other over lack of acceptance, and it works both ways. Holding a grudge is not your thing. And, no, someone does not have to ask for your forgiveness to receive it. YOU have to give them the mercy you are given to forgive them, no matter what they've done.
I'm here. Still think of all of you often.
- Conna Dewart
http://www.xtranormal.com/watch/7052295
Post a Comment