tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4816732093186928774.post301286768333839558..comments2023-03-26T02:30:44.066-07:00Comments on Mosaic Of Pain: MOP CommentsCris Aguilarhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10950908651660523514noreply@blogger.comBlogger125125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4816732093186928774.post-64351113363418611922010-09-02T01:06:41.190-07:002010-09-02T01:06:41.190-07:00http://www.xtranormal.com/watch/7052295http://www.xtranormal.com/watch/7052295Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06856857883609217093noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4816732093186928774.post-28741954260767307322009-08-19T14:49:52.161-07:002009-08-19T14:49:52.161-07:00Let me start with a disclaimer: I have been living...Let me start with a disclaimer: I have been living out of state for years, now, and have not been a member of Mosaic for a long time.<br /><br />Having said that, I am saddened by the general bitterness and wrath that people seem to be holding on to in this blog. Mosaic was my home church for many years, and I was part of a church plant in Pasadena that horribly disillusioned me. The experience lead to my mistrust in church leadership and ultimately distanced me from the church. However, I blame NO ONE for that circumstance. Each person who I felt "failed me" in the process was truely doing what he/she felt was the right thing to do. It is so hard to live up to the standards we hold our pastors to. Perfection is an unfair expectation. Pastors are not God. They are not perfect counselors - sometimes they don't know what to say, they handle things badly, or they simply mess up in a situation.<br /><br />God has not put you in the hands of your pastor. What I read here is so similar to the attitudes that still make me leary of the church. I find it ironic. Complaints and rants of the shortcomings of church leaders (which mainly include their pointint out your shortcomings). When does it stop?<br /><br />God accepts me. He takes me for who I am - sin and all. He is the most merciful personality that has ever existed. Knowing I am accepted frees me to accept others - even when something they have done hurts or confuses me.<br /><br />I will always love Mosaic. I will always love all of you that I knew when I was a member there - whether you still love Mosaic or not. I was never very close to Pastor Erwin, but he once did something that made me respect him as a human being. Pastor is just one part of a man. I am aware that he is not a social dynamo, just like you are, but I don't think you can expect that from someone whose personality contradicts it.<br /><br />It hurts to read so many people's feelings of anger, regret, and pain that they still hold on to after all this time. That must weight so heavy on you. I hope you can let that go. I hope you can learn to love and forgive these people that you focus on so much, even now that they are out of your lives.<br /><br />Every Christian is my brother. Every member of my family is MY FAMILY. You included. I still miss some of you. I still miss Mosaic.<br /><br />And my heart is breaking for you. It really is. This site makes me so sad. Please forgive them. Please let it all go. Please move on. <br /><br />I don't mean any hurt or disrespect with this post. It's just that so many of us have lost each other over lack of acceptance, and it works both ways. Holding a grudge is not your thing. And, no, someone does not have to ask for your forgiveness to receive it. YOU have to give them the mercy you are given to forgive them, no matter what they've done.<br /><br />I'm here. Still think of all of you often.<br /><br />- Conna DewartConan The Barbiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17237122290264763122noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4816732093186928774.post-42042225108136696962007-03-01T01:20:00.000-08:002007-03-01T01:20:00.000-08:00************************************The conversati...************<BR/>************<BR/>************<BR/><BR/>The conversation has been moved over one page, which is called Primary Aim - Mission Statement. Click the following link to continue on: <BR/><BR/><A HREF="http://mosaicofpaincontinues.blogspot.com/2007/02/primary-aim-mission-statement.html" REL="nofollow">Next Page Click Here</A>Cris Aguilarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10950908651660523514noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4816732093186928774.post-29842200354859176062007-02-28T11:41:00.000-08:002007-02-28T11:41:00.000-08:00Ryan, I highly suggest that you do your own homewo...Ryan, I highly suggest that you do your own homework about a lot of issues that have come out and are about to come out. I am saying this because I know you well (however, we havent talked in about four years) and I think you are a reasonable person. I know you are hearing a lot from Erwin and staff, but please, make a few phone calls about these specfic issues in particular: the Bro Tom debacle, and Believing the Impossible. Believe me, you're not going to like what you will find out, but you will find out the documented proof. "Facts are stubborn things." ---Frank GaffneyAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4816732093186928774.post-16584250046050493522007-02-28T09:27:00.000-08:002007-02-28T09:27:00.000-08:00Ryan, did you not read Eddie's post? You won't ev...Ryan, did you not read Eddie's post? You won't even address the Bro Tom situation. You claim to know him so well but you have not asked him his opinion. You are here to divide not to listen. If God himself revealed the truth to you, you would try to find a way to dismiss it. You don't have ears to hear or eyes to see. I believe your are a plant. <BR/><BR/>You said <I>I am ALL for discovering truth</I><BR/><BR/>You have the relationships to pursue the truth but you don't want to go there because you don't want to find that the truth is different than what you want to believe. Eddie shared a very personal story of lies, betrayal, and a cover up that has not been addressed to this day. You have no compassion. You have no credibility as a truth seeker.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4816732093186928774.post-4347533589845735342007-02-28T07:01:00.000-08:002007-02-28T07:01:00.000-08:00OMG! Eddie, you should not be meeting with me, wh...OMG! Eddie, you should not be meeting with me, which is exactly why I put OTHER'S email addresses. These people are the ones accused, these people can make change happen. This isn't rocket science. <BR/><BR/>I am glad you are meeting with someone tomorrow. I think that shows that you are actually moving towards action and not passive aggressiveness.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4816732093186928774.post-53105271581261643502007-02-27T22:00:00.000-08:002007-02-27T22:00:00.000-08:00Ryan,I will assume you did not understand the comm...Ryan,<BR/><BR/>I will assume you did not understand the comment I posted on the other comment section (even though you did reference it in one of your comments)<BR/><BR/><I>Ryan,<BR/>I did not realize you were the "official" spokesperson for Mosaic. I was scheduled to meet with a leader Thursday night. However, if I should be meeting with you then I will cancel that meeting and what?<BR/><BR/>Eddie Marshall</I>Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4816732093186928774.post-9741567578040735342007-02-27T21:49:00.000-08:002007-02-27T21:49:00.000-08:00Someone had two helping of the Kool-Aid. MHSomeone had two helping of the Kool-Aid. MHAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4816732093186928774.post-18023574910914991962007-02-27T21:25:00.000-08:002007-02-27T21:25:00.000-08:00Eddie, just answer me this: Are you willing to ta...Eddie, just answer me this: Are you willing to talk with the Mosaic leadership? If no, what do you plan to do?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4816732093186928774.post-46017632691058163812007-02-27T21:21:00.000-08:002007-02-27T21:21:00.000-08:00Eddie,So what are you going to do about this to so...Eddie,<BR/><BR/>So what are you going to do about this to solve the problem? Post more blogs? Ask for more stories? And what good will that do? Create a bigger and badder web site? That will not accomplish the mission statement of this group. Do you see how is see this as a futile situation. I mean, I guess you could picket at the gatherings or bring legal charges. How do you plan on moving forward?<BR/><BR/>Two things,<BR/><BR/>1. Erwin and other elders have always spoken rather highly of The Church on Brady. Erwin has called it innovative and Progressive. Like I said, the worst they have ever said was that it was at a growth plateau.<BR/><BR/>2. Mosaic is STILL the SBC church with the most international workers on the field. They have churches in the alliance across the world. Mosaic's view extends FAR beyond the four venues.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4816732093186928774.post-19215940940911601492007-02-27T21:03:00.000-08:002007-02-27T21:03:00.000-08:00Sigh, I am going to share here my experience of de...Sigh, I am going to share here my experience of dealing with taking meetings at Mosaic (for the third time) – I will add a bit more detail for those who have read some of this before, hoping to keep it interesting and not too redundant. And, hopefully, a bit more for the “Ryans” of the world to maybe open their eyes and understand that many of us have had similar “meetings” at Mosaic. How do I know that? First hand accounts from them, and a number or posts here.<BR/><BR/>In 1999 a missionary couple was at a regional retreat in Asia that Erwin was at, also. They asked Erwin why some long time members were leaving Mosaic. Mine and my wife’s name came up in this conversation. Erwin used some information that was given to him in private, saying that was why we had left Mosaic. Even though I had a meeting with him and Robert Martinez and told them the exact reason we were leaving prior to his telling our missionary friends another reason. <BR/><BR/>I had told Erwin it was because the way the Bro Thom situation was handled. I implored he and Robert to please address the way in which the church had handled the situation. They both said, no. I said we would not feel comfortable staying there and we would need to find fellowship elsewhere. I had this meeting in the first place at the prompting of a Mosaic Elder.<BR/><BR/>When my missionary friend phoned us, upset and crying from the field, believing that my marriage was doomed, based on what Erwin had told them, I phoned that same Elder to ask what he thought I should do. “This is very serious.” Was the message I left on his phone. He has, to this day, never contacted me back. <BR/><BR/>I scheduled another meeting with Erwin & Robert. By the time we met there were two false rumors that had been spread by Erwin about my wife and I. The second one concerned one of our children; that hit very close to home. Just the same, God gave me the grace to ask Erwin calmly and directly in the last meeting I had with he and Robert. Erwin denied both instances and contradicted what two of my most trusted and closest friends had told me he said. The only thing is, these twists of the truth could have only happened the way they did, by Erwin’s lips. And I have witnesses that can validate both situations.<BR/><BR/>Stunned by the blatant manipulation of the truth I tried to contact another Elder (you know who you are, I forgive you, but no longer trust you) and he too has never returned my call. Sadly, we left Mosaic, never to return.<BR/><BR/>Prior to all of this, my wife and I returned from Japan just as the Wolf “removal” was happening. I asked Thom Wolf to meet with me at a Starbucks. I knew that it was a very complex and difficult situation, but I figured I knew the Bro better than I did Erwin (which was the case). So, I challenged Thom to humble himself and ask forgiveness for any part in what happened. – I did this while trying to plug back into what we thought was still our home church – before I spoke with Erwin & Robert the first time. I could tell that Thom was hurt by my challenging him first, but I really felt, if anyone could turn the situation around it would be him. <BR/><BR/>Bro Thom told me first hand how the Mosaic leadership had mandated he could only meet with them alone; he was not allowed to bring anyone else with him. How he would not be allowed to speak. Only listen. (I confirmed that these stipulations were put upon Thom, by Mosaic, in my meetings with Erwin & Robert) Thom was very hurt, devastated. Now, ten years later, I see that I was wrong to expect him to be able to “fix” anything. Mosaic had stripped him of all dignity, any ability to try and make things right. 25 years of service and leadership were tossed aside.<BR/> <BR/>In that first meeting with Erwin & Robert I asked them if they felt that the leadership had done anything wrong with the way it handled Thom. They both said, “Yes, if they could do it again they would do some things differently.” We talked about how Erwin felt uncomfortable that so many church members would come to him and say that Bro Thom advised differently. I agreed that if Erwin were the Senior Pastor then members should not be going to Bro Thom in that way. I asked if they had confronted Thom and/or the members that were doing it? They said they did not. And given the chance they would like to see Thom back in fellowship at Mosaic. And they would like to apologize publicly to him for that injustice, but Thom would not answer their letters. I suggested a way to do it, but they were not interested.<BR/><BR/>Some of you have painted a picture that the Wolfs are not that hurt or bothered by this. And Carol Davis has moved on, too. If that is the case, why have they never once been back to visit a place that they all served at and ministered to for over 75 cumulative years?<BR/><BR/>Mosaic,<BR/><BR/>If you deny your roots then you have none as a church. Please do not disrespect the many people that have invested the best years of their lives into your church. I do not believe any of us want to come back there; just the same we would like to believe that there is a shred of genuine gratitude for a legacy that you have inherited.<BR/><BR/>“A spiritual reference point East of downtown Los Angeles, and a sending base to the ends of the Earth.” <BR/><BR/>All of us would see the “ends of the Earth” to include, Pasadena, Beverly Hills, Chino and etc…<BR/><BR/>Eddie MarsahallAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4816732093186928774.post-36933915047666027472007-02-27T19:02:00.000-08:002007-02-27T19:02:00.000-08:00I'll go with that Bibleman. I think that people h...I'll go with that Bibleman. I think that people have hid behind this blog and used it as an excuse for contacting these people directly. I am ALL for discovering truth, but in order to do that you have to ENGAGE both parties in conversation. Here is a way to engage these people in conversation<BR/><BR/>Erwin@mosaic.org<BR/>Eric@mosaic.org<BR/>Dave@mosaic.org<BR/>David@mosaic.org<BR/>Dave@mosaic.org<BR/>Janice@mosaic.org<BR/>Ralph@mosaic.org<BR/>Rickey@mosaic.org<BR/>Rick@awaken.org<BR/><BR/>Let's actually begin to engage actual conversations with one another.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4816732093186928774.post-71658262760138645542007-02-27T18:05:00.000-08:002007-02-27T18:05:00.000-08:00Bibleman wrote:"This goes for MOP members as well....Bibleman wrote:<BR/><BR/><BR/>"This goes for MOP members as well. If you are unwilling to talk, than what is the point of Mosaic leaders attempting to reach out?"<BR/><BR/>Answer: What leaders? Not one Elder or Deacon has come forward to deal with this, let alone Erwin.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4816732093186928774.post-11106174541852063282007-02-27T16:56:00.000-08:002007-02-27T16:56:00.000-08:00Ryan, you wrote:"What do you do when there are two...Ryan, you wrote:<BR/><BR/>"What do you do when there are two people who were a part of the same event. One says that mistrust and disrespect took place and the other doesn't. What happens when the impact continues to grow and fruit can be seen all over the world? Will those questions be addressed as well?"<BR/><BR/>The first two questions seem to be rhetorical. And the answer to the last is no. The impact is undeniable. However, if the allegations are not tackled aggressively the man and his ministry could become tarnished thus leading to negative impact.<BR/><BR/>"...If I have the gift of prophesy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I AM NOTHING." ICor.13 <BR/>All I am asking for her is to take the conversation(s) to the next level with the man at the center of the controversy. As it seems, MOP is not going to go away by simply ignoring them. <BR/><BR/>This goes for MOP members as well. If you are unwilling to talk, than what is the point of Mosaic leaders attempting to reach out?<BR/><BR/>BiblemanAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4816732093186928774.post-6107373770845792222007-02-27T15:01:00.000-08:002007-02-27T15:01:00.000-08:00"However, if his ministry is built on a foundation..."However, if his ministry is built on a foundation of mistrust and disrespect than the impact will probably be short lived and fruitless if these allegations are not addressed promply and appropriately"<BR/><BR/>What do you do when there are two people who were a part of the same event. One says that mistrust and disrespect took place and the other doesn't. What happens when the impact continues to grow and fruit can be seen all over the world? Will those questions be addressed as well?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4816732093186928774.post-78955718748144619322007-02-27T06:57:00.000-08:002007-02-27T06:57:00.000-08:00Anonymous said...If you decide to quote anyone her...<I>Anonymous said...<BR/><BR/>If you decide to quote anyone here, please try not to take the quote out of context to make someone out to who they are not.<BR/><BR/>I've heard Erwin say a few of these quotes over the years and some of them are said in a joking manner or to get the attention of the audience. After the comment, which in isolation sounds bad, he would go into more depth about the topic.<BR/><BR/>For example, the quote: "Our church is not seeker sensitive; we're just equally insensitive to everyone." is a joke. If Mosaic was really insensitive to everyone, why is the church constantly growing?<BR/><BR/>And the quote about UNC, Erwin's just being a fan of his school. Whoever posted this really shouldn't try to read into this anymore than that.</I><BR/><BR/><BR/>Did you take the time to go to the link where the qoutes came from?<BR/><BR/><I>"Got to spend about 6 hours today with one of the most innovative, creative thinkers in church--Erwin McManus...Here's a little list of things I gleaned from him today:</I><BR/><BR/>The quotes were given as sincere and true, not jokingly. You should probably contact that individual and straighten him out. And, before you make accusations, do your homework. This is a serious issue, all of you need to start SEEING it that way.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4816732093186928774.post-15157630075987929832007-02-27T04:51:00.000-08:002007-02-27T04:51:00.000-08:00Thank you Jimmy for being the first of the Mosaic ...Thank you Jimmy for being the first of the Mosaic Core Staff to personally enter this debate. Based on what I have read and heard from people who are not only highly educated but also true followers of Christ, I think it would be inappropriate to meet with you in a casual environment. I'm just having trouble seeing a group of people sitting around you at Starbucks discussing these issues. <BR/><BR/>If you and/or Mosaic leadership want to truly see resolution and healing here, I think it more appropriate that Pastor Erwin and/or his staff contact the people who have listed their names in this discussion in order to address issues and facilitate healing. I think the least Mosaic can do is provide a place where these people, either individually or collectively. <BR/><BR/>If I read anything hear that seems to be a repetitive theme, it seems to be the lack of respect and trust amongst leaders and past staff. We all know how powerful Erwin's impact has been both here in LA and around the world. However, if his ministry is built on a foundation of mistrust and disrespect than the impact will probably be short lived and fruitless if these allegations are not addressed promply and appropriately. <BR/><BR/>"If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels but have not love I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbol." I Cor. 13<BR/><BR/>When someone has a problem with me I like to hash it out even if their issues are unfounded. If I am in the right than I have nothing to fear by meeting with them. If I am at fault, then I should be able to eventually see it and admit to it. Why does it seem that Erwin is the only one at Mosaic that asks the hard questions as heard in his many stories of meetings with other church and secular leaders around the country, i.e., Columbia University debates and the story about the church that wanted to be more racially diverse. <BR/><BR/>I would think that someone so skillful at asking the hard questions would himself be able to answer a few.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4816732093186928774.post-89392964152762304882007-02-27T02:02:00.000-08:002007-02-27T02:02:00.000-08:00If you decide to quote anyone here, please try not...If you decide to quote anyone here, please try not to take the quote out of context to make someone out to who they are not.<BR/><BR/>I've heard Erwin say a few of these quotes over the years and some of them are said in a joking manner or to get the attention of the audience. After the comment, which in isolation sounds bad, he would go into more depth about the topic.<BR/><BR/>For example, the quote: "Our church is not seeker sensitive; we're just equally insensitive to everyone." is a joke. If Mosaic was really insensitive to everyone, why is the church constantly growing?<BR/><BR/>And the quote about UNC, Erwin's just being a fan of his school. Whoever posted this really shouldn't try to read into this anymore than that.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4816732093186928774.post-49789549853563244602007-02-26T18:47:00.000-08:002007-02-26T18:47:00.000-08:00"Our church is not seeker sensitive; we're just eq..."Our church is not seeker sensitive; we're just equally insensitive to everyone."<BR/><BR/>- Erwin Raphael McManus<BR/><BR/>"Jesus was about people; not about sermons. He used sermons to help people. Sometimes I feel like I am the opposite."<BR/><BR/>- Erwin Raphael McManus<BR/><BR/><BR/>"Erwin is a huge Chapel Hill fan, even though he lives in LA (he graduated from UNC in 81). He told me that the UNC logo is the most popular emblem in LA, even over UCLA."<BR/><BR/>All of the above from:<BR/><BR/>http://jdgreear.typepad.com/my_weblog<BR/><BR/>scroll down to: <BR/><B>Whatever it takes: Erwin McManus</B>Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4816732093186928774.post-70148097402821066192007-02-26T17:23:00.000-08:002007-02-26T17:23:00.000-08:00I do not believe that anyone here is accusing anyo...I do not believe that anyone here is accusing anyone at Mosaic off any sexual misconduct. I personally cringe at the examples when they are used. However, they are only illustrations of how it does not matter if it is only a couple, or for that matter one individual that has been mistreated. The misappropriation of funds is fairly evident. When an organization raises funds for one purpose - in this case to purchase land and build on it - that money can ONLY be utilized to that end. It is sad that this has to be addressed here, but it does seem to be the case.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4816732093186928774.post-82682966206558860712007-02-26T17:10:00.000-08:002007-02-26T17:10:00.000-08:00I have yet to hear anything on this site, or the o...I have yet to hear anything on this site, or the other blogs that merits Erwin's removal. Most comments here are vague, and the stories that are told are undoubtedly sad, but not to the degree of Ted Haggard or a priest molesting a kid (as you have suggested). Most of these are very bad experiences with someone or opinions over doctrine, not experiences that involve huge moral downfalls. Unless these allegations of sexual misconduct and misappropriations of funds are true, I see nothing over the edge here. <BR/><BR/>I am not trying to be apathetic or cold-hearted, there just isn't enough here to merit that strong of empathy. Can we explore the allegations of sexual misconduct and money misappropriation further?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4816732093186928774.post-19111259097833439652007-02-26T16:41:00.000-08:002007-02-26T16:41:00.000-08:00Trust is the critical foundation of any successful...Trust is the critical foundation of any successful organization. Trust only grows in an environment in which individuals have character. If character is corrupt then perspective is distorted. This is clearly seen in the life of the narcissist. This distortion leads to mistrust. If you cannot trust the pastor, there will never be sustainable interpersonal relationships between pastor and staff and other leaders. This concept of character first is repeatedly reinforced in scripture—qualifications for deacons and elders focus mainly on character—nothing to do with seminary education or anointing. Once there is the breakdown of trust the foundation is lost for the church to maintain Biblical community. The concept of team is continually undermined. <B><I>The net result is the effective witness of the church compromised.</I></B><BR/><BR/>- emphasis mine -<BR/><BR/>Eddie Marshall<BR/><BR/>P.S. If you have not read the article this came from, I once again, implore you to do so.<BR/><BR/>http://www.power2serve.net/narcissism_in_the_pulpit1.htmAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4816732093186928774.post-42001325231493128682007-02-26T15:34:00.000-08:002007-02-26T15:34:00.000-08:00Anonymous said... Would it be wrong of me to co...<I>Anonymous said...<BR/><BR/> Would it be wrong of me to come to a "hasty generalization" by saying that a few here have had or hurtful experience with Erwin while hundreds have not, and therefore the consensus here is not accurate. After all it "involves basing a broad conclusion upon the statistics of a survey of a small group that fails to sufficiently represent the whole population." </I><BR/>The gravity is not in the number of people offended, but the nature of the offense. Thousands of people had nothing but good dealings with Ted Haggard. One man knew another side of him. That was enough.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4816732093186928774.post-60234879039527165412007-02-26T13:15:00.000-08:002007-02-26T13:15:00.000-08:00Would it be wrong of me to come to a "hasty genera...Would it be wrong of me to come to a "hasty generalization" by saying that a few here have had or hurtful experience with Erwin while hundreds have not, and therefore the consensus here is not accurate. After all it "involves basing a broad conclusion upon the statistics of a survey of a small group that fails to sufficiently represent the whole population."Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4816732093186928774.post-20790106465616403442007-02-26T11:11:00.000-08:002007-02-26T11:11:00.000-08:00Anonymous said... How do you plan on being hear...<I> Anonymous said...<BR/><BR/> How do you plan on being heard when people respond the way David did to those at Mosaic who are actually wanting to hear you and reach out? I think that response says alot about what most people really want here.</I><BR/><BR/>There are many "individuals" in here. Each should be counted for their own individual voice. No one person's voice is less important, or more important. <BR/><BR/>emAnonymousnoreply@blogger.com