Wednesday, July 30, 2008

MOP Comments (Page 11)

When Jose first wrote I didn’t realize the firestorm it would cause. To me he was another person to come through the MOP doors to tell their story of hurt and pain. I figured it was like another brink on our wall which displays the warning to current and future members that not all seems as it appears. Considering what he wrote was so “typical” of what others have wrote, why should I think different. He wrote about his experience in generalities, stayed respectful and kept to the subject at hand, the pain he experienced. I didn’t know Jose like I didn’t many others who have posted their experiences. Jose seemed very typical of what has been written in the past.

I was wrong.

Jose's gifting is not so typical and therefore his role was great and Mosaic was sure to maximize their use of those gifts. Jose leaving knowing all that he knows of the inner working is a blow to Mosaic. What would he say about them? If we all realized who he was and what he was privy to, there would be more credibility to his words. They must smear him. They must tear him down so that it is clear that his words are of a angry, sinful person. If he was one of “those” type then surely he could not be counted on to give valid testimony. They must crush him before he did any real damage.

What they don’t realize is that Jose doesn’t want to cause damage. Jose is not looking to maximize their pain but simply to get through his. Jose is hurting over what has happen while looking for a new community to call home. He has made it clear he needs direction, he needs discipleship. It is clear that Jose found Jesus and is seeking to grow in His ways.
It sounded to me like Jose is a little confused by all that has happen. I don’t think he realizes to the degree in which Mosaic will go to protect it’s image. My hope and prayer is that Jose continues to move on and finds what he is looking for. A good church where he can grow in his walk with God. After my brief conversation with him I could tell he was the type of person that put action to his words so I am sure he will find the right church. It is a difficult process but please don’t give up. You have a lot of growing to do as do the rest of us. We are running in a marathon and need all the support we can get. Community (church) is vital to that run.
I know you guys at Mosaic are trying to figure out how to blow this fire out but I’ll do you a favor and put it out for you. Let’s forget who Jose was at your church. Let’s just say he was a regular member who left and has come here to post some concerns. How about you focus your efforts on answering his concerns, our concerns regarding finances and discipleship. His concerns about service and taking time to ensure that he is growing spiritually.

How about we focus on the issues?

63 comments:

Anonymous said...

Let me get this straight. Mosaic caters to those in the arts. And they're surprised that some of their faithful are homosexuals. Maybe Erwin shouldn't be so wishy washy on the pulpit? Hey maybe there should be some type of care given to this group of believers. Maybe just Maybe we should focus more on our sheep before we write our next book about how to do church. Maybe

Yvonne W. said...

Sorry Chris, I know this will be a long post but I felt I had to respond to the recent controversy.

Mosaic’s Real Doctrinal Beliefs

From the Mosaic website's main page:


About Mosaic

We are a community of followers of Jesus Christ, committed to live by faith, to be known by love, and to be a voice of hope. The name of our community comes from the diversity of our members and from the symbolism of a broken and fragmented humanity which can become a work of beauty under the artful hands of God. We welcome people from all walks of life, regardless of where they are in their spiritual journey. Come to Mosaic, and discover how all the pieces can fit together!


http://mosaic.org/

From Mosaic's Frequently Asked Questions page:

What are your core values and vision of Mosaic?

The best way to get an in-depth look at the vision and values of mosaic is to get the book An Unstoppable Force, by Erwin Raphael McManus. It is an inside-out look at the values that drive Mosaic as a community of faith. You can get it on sale at Amazon if you like.

But if you’re just looking for the bullet points, here you go:

Overview:

Mosaic is a community of followers of Jesus Christ, committed to live by faith, to be known by love, and to be a voice of hope. The name of our community comes both from the diversity of our members, and from the symbolism of a broken and fragmented humanity which can become a work of beauty under the artful hands of God. We welcome people from all walks of life, regardless of where they are in their spiritual journey.

Mission :

To live by Faith, to be known by Love, and to be a voice of Hope
(1 Thess 1:3)

Vision:

To be a spiritual reference point throughout Los Angeles , and a sending base to the ends of the Earth.

Core Values/Metaphors/Environments:

Wind (Commission)

Mission is why the Church exists.
The Church is a movement, not an institution.
Every follower of Jesus is commissioned by God.

Water (Community)

Love is the context for all mission.
The Church is relational, not programmatic.
Every follower of Jesus is part of a larger community.

Wood (Connection)

Structure must always submit to Spirit.
The Church is empowering, not controlling.
Every follower of Jesus is called and connected uniquely to serve.

Fire (Communion)

Relevance to culture is not optional.
The Church is incarnational, not esoteric.
Every follower of Jesus celebrates communion with God.

Earth (Character)

Creativity is the natural result of spirituality.
The Church is transforming, not conforming.
Every follower of Jesus grows in Christ-like character.

Core Convictions:

The Bible is God’s authoritative word to us.
Jesus is the only hope for a lost and broken world.
The local church is God’s agent for redemptive change.
Every Christian is called and gifted by God to serve the Body and seek the Lost.
The Church is called to whole earth evangelism.

↑ What is your Doctrine?

The absolute best way to understand and learn about any community is to experience it on the relational level. Statements of faith can tell you what a community of faith’s beliefs are, but they can’t tell you who they are. If you’d like to discover who we are at Mosaic, please come to one of our Gatherings on Sundays by going to our home page at www.mosaic.org.

If unable to make it to Los Angeles and you want a more in-depth and relevant look at Mosaic (e.g. our core values and philosophy of ministry), please pick up a copy of the book An Unstoppable Force, by Erwin Raphael McManus. You can get it on sale at Amazon or probably find it at any major bookstore.

If the actual “statements of faith” are what you are still interested in, please reference the Baptist Faith and Message by going to this website: http://www.sbc.net/bfm/bfm2000.asp


http://mosaic.org/faq/#faq3

From the Southern Baptist link mentioned above:

XV. The Christian and the Social Order

All Christians are under obligation to seek to make the will of Christ supreme in our own lives and in human society. Means and methods used for the improvement of society and the establishment of righteousness among men can be truly and permanently helpful only when they are rooted in the regeneration of the individual by the saving grace of God in Jesus Christ. In the spirit of Christ, Christians should oppose racism, every form of greed, selfishness, and vice, and all forms of sexual immorality, including adultery, homosexuality, and pornography. We should work to provide for the orphaned, the needy, the abused, the aged, the helpless, and the sick. We should speak on behalf of the unborn and contend for the sanctity of all human life from conception to natural death. Every Christian should seek to bring industry, government, and society as a whole under the sway of the principles of righteousness, truth, and brotherly love. In order to promote these ends Christians should be ready to work with all men of good will in any good cause, always being careful to act in the spirit of love without compromising their loyalty to Christ and His truth.


What does Mosaic say about becoming a member or part of its “volunteer staff?”

↑ What is the Mosaic membership process?

To become a “member” of Mosaic, there isn’t a process. To be a part of our community at Mosaic, all you need to do is come. We will do our best to serve you, teach, share with you, love you, and allow you to serve no matter where you are in your spiritual journey.

↑ What is the Mosaic volunteer staff process?

On the other hand, to become a part of our volunteer staff involves a process. The only reason to join staff is if you want to make a greater commitment to serve.

The Staff Process looks like this, and does not have to be done in this order**:

1.Have made a focused commitment to Christ.

2.Have made a public confession of faith through baptism by immersion** (must have made a focused commitment to Christ first).

3.Be connected to a Small Group or Ministry Team.

4.Have completed “Mosaic Life in Christ” (a 6 session conversation with others about our life in Christ).

5.Completed Mosaic “Life in Church” (a luncheon with leaders from Mosaic sharing our vision and values. ** You must complete #s 1-4 before attending this evening).

6.Embrace the Staff Covenant.

7.Be commissioned at Elements.
The Staff Covenant is:

1.Invest your passions - Honor God by following Christ personally and passionately. Your reputation is Christ’s reputation and the church’s reputation.

2.Invest your talents - Participate in the life of the congregation through genuine worship, sharing, learning, and serving.

3.Invest your resources - Support the Gospel here and worldwide by tithing (10% of your income) and then by giving more as the Lord leads. Invest your time, skills, talents, and gifts in and through the church.

4.Invest your relationships - Develop authentic loving relationships with other in the church and establish significant relationships with those who do not know Jesus.

Mosaic is a huge volunteer force of talented, gifted, unique and committed “unpaid staff.” If you want to come to Mosaic to become a part of what we’re doing - to connect, learn, grow, and impact the city - we welcome you with open arms.

If interested in coming on “staff” with Mosaic, please let your small group leader know or contact someone at the connections area of the Sunday Gatherings.

http://www.mosaic.org/faq#faq1

-----------------------------------



PLEASE NOTE: Nowhere in the above “mentoring process” does it mention that people who wish to be members or volunteer staff must adhere to the Southern Baptist Faith and Message “statements of faith.”




Having reviewed all of the above . . .



Dear Jose,

I am not going to bash you over the head, you've already experienced enough of that type of "christian love.” While I do not agree with your lifestyle, I would have told you so upfront and not “lead you on” the way Mosaic appears to have done.

I'm sorry you experienced so much pain at Mosaic and I wish their true doctrinal beliefs would have been made clear to you before you invested so much time and service there.



To Mosaic:

Shame on you! Why do you bury your true doctrinal beliefs so deeply in your website? If you truly ascribe to the Baptist Faith and Message "statements of faith," then why does it take so much digging around to find it?

Could it have anything to do with that fact that your leader, Erwin McManus, has encouraged the confusion surrounding Mosaic’s real doctrinal beliefs?

Consider these statements:

“The church is officially non-denominational, but the doctrine is Southern Baptist. Those traditional values may seem a far cry from this trendy club scene, but McManus doesn't see a conflict.”

Source: NPR, Pastor Brings Jesus into an L.A. Dance Club
by Amy Walters, July 30, 2008
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=14501673

“Mosaic is affiliated with the Southern Baptist Convention, but it does not subscribe to many stances of the nation’s largest Protestant denomination; Mosaic, for example, allows women pastors.”

Source: Los Angeles Times, Creativity Is Key to Young Church’s Growing AppealBy K. Connie Kang, October 09, 2004 in print edition B-2 http://articles.latimes.com/2004/oct/09/local/me-beliefs9

Mosaic is to be commended for their interest in the arts and their courage to meet in a bar. However, I cannot recommend this church for their lack of esteem for the Word of God in their desire to reach out to culture. The doctrinal section on their web page offers nothing but simply says to get to know the lives of people at Mosaic. It states that if you are really wanting to read a “statement of faith” to read the Baptist Faith statement. Yet in the L.A. Times article Erwin McManus admits that though Mosaic is affiliated with the Southern Baptist Convention it does not subscribe to many (of their) stances; for example Mosaic allows for women pastors.

Source: Orange County Churches Review and Guide, December 13, 2004
http://www.occhurches.org/

Theology is not some boring, esoteric line of thinking. Theology is the study and pursuit of God; it must provide the shape and form of emergent ministries. Many disagree. Erwin McManus of Mosaic is speaking for many in the emergent movement when he says, "Theology just doesn't matter to us. We just want to love people and show them Jesus." (McManus, 2004)
[Footnote: McManus, E. (2004). Conference: The Barbarian Way of Evangelism. Seattle, 15-16 September.]

Source: Emerge or Submerge: Is "cultural relevance" an effective and theologically sound wineskin for the emergent church or is it moving Christianity toward oblivion?
by Dave Livermore, Ph.D.
http://assets.cornerstone.edu/pages/1310/File/EmergeSubmerge.pdf

So Mosaic, is it true that “theology just doesn’t matter to us. We just want to love people and show them Jesus?”

It looks to me as if Mosaic is more than willing to just love people who possess valuable job skills such as film/video production and website management “regardless of where they are in their spiritual journey” so long as it can take advantage of these people’s FREE LABOR,

Shame on you Mosaic!!!!

Is it any wonder that people like Jose feel “used?”

Mosaic, if you really care about your people then STOP hiding behind words like “authenticity” and BE AUTHENTIC!!!!

Admit that you are a conservative Southern Baptist Church with conservative Southern Baptist beliefs so that people who visit will know EXACTLY what they are getting themselves into.

Mosaic, if you are NOT a conservative Southern Baptist Church, then STOP directing people to the Baptist Faith and Message “statements of faith” and adopt your own!!!!

“Let your yes be yes and your no be no.”

Stop being lukewarm Mosaic. We all know where that will get you.



Yvonne W.

Anonymous said...

So we all need to pray that Jose finds a church that feels that homosexuality is not a sin. Maybe even a church where the leaders are homosexuals. I think here in California he will not have a problem finding this church. I would figure some of the MOP heads would suggest one of their home church. Yes, Mosaic is well aware that homosexuals, drunks, liars, thieves, porn stars, and other type sinners attend Mosaic. Many of these people develop a relationship with Jesus and go on to spiritual maturity. Others never truly repent of their sin and walk away from Christ & the body of Christ. While others create their own version of Jesus and leave Mosaic looking for a church that will agree with their view of Jesus. I don't think Jose is alone on his journey. it seems that many MOP heads did not want to serve, but be served in their church. Mosaic doesn't cater to self serving "christians" so these people leave and whine about not being discipled and having their butt wiped. If anyone would turn the church into a cult - it would be these self serving "chrisitans' that think pastor Erwin or pastor whoever has to meet with them and listen to their sappy stories of hurt & pain. Why don't the few MOP heads go live in a third world country and get a clue about real pain.

Anonymous said...

My sentiments exactly.

It is easy to say we are the church for the artists and entertainment people in L.A. And get all the accolades from the church at large.

It's another thing to live that out.

Anonymous said...

So we all need to pray that Jose finds a church that feels that homosexuality is not a sin. Maybe even a church where the leaders are homosexuals. I think here in California he will not have a problem finding this church. I would figure some of the MOP heads would suggest one of their home church...

How I miss Mosaic...not

Anonymous said...

"So we all need to pray that Jose finds a church that feels that homosexuality is not a sin."

Whew...just listen to that venom.

Actually, we pray that Mosaic will repent of its prideful, arrogant mentality, and see the error of their ways. Then, they can truly love the Jose's of the world.

And, we at MOP do not need Erwin to do all those things you described. We just want him to repent of his behavior when he started Mosaic.

This is really needed for the long term fruit of your ministry. We really do want you all to prosper and bring about change for the Kingdom, not for Erwin.

Seriously, you guys are really starting to show your insides on this one, and it isn't pretty.

Anonymous said...

Is it that Mosaic is the only church on the planet that knows right from wrong?

Do you guys have an exclusive lease on the truth?

All this site does is say that the behavior of your leaders causes pain for some.

Why do you have to come here and attack, if it is not true?

I'm sure they must tell you from the pulpit and within your small groups, "Don't engage with MOP. Don't respond, it only causes more trouble."

If they don't, they should.

Anonymous said...

What does it mean to "love the sinner, but hate the sin."?

No, really, think about it. Are you guys still hanging out with Jose? Do you treat him with love? Jesus is.

Here's the deal. You are commanded to treat him with just as much respect and patience as when he was working long hard hours for free on all the Mosaic websites. Only now, you need to not be taken in by his choices to embrace his lifestyle. That's the "hate the sin" part.

If we minister to someone that gets angry, or jealous or envious, or whatever.., we need to not show anger, or jealousy. But, we need to continue to love them.

Jesus does. Think about what he did while he walked this earth. He sat down and ate with all types of sinners. And, even after they followed him many years and then denied him like Peter, he still sought them out and loved on them.

You know what you need to do, now go do it. Love the brother, just don't embrace his sin. Be like Christ on this one, not man.

Hear Jose out. Really listen to his struggles. I know many of you have probably many times before. But, remember 70 times 70, that is your calling as Christians. Pray with him, really, pray for him. Except him. Don't toss out the baby with the bathwater.

You can do it.

Anonymous said...

>these self serving "chrisitans' that think pastor Erwin or pastor whoever has to meet with them and listen to their sappy stories of hurt & pain.

Actually, you need to read the mission statement:

REPENTANCE, RESIGNATION & RESTITUTION is what we are looking for. Time for talking has passed.

Anonymous said...

How about we focus on the issues?

Cris,

These are the issues.

Easy believism vs. true Christianity.

Mosaic is about numbers, not depth of character; words not actions.

Anonymous said...

I agree Mosaic leaders cause pain. All true leaders cause pain, including Christ. Spiritual maturity will be linked to growing pains. Erwin was elected by the church and called by God to clean house. The few people on this site are welcome back to Mosaic anytime. You are loved unconditionally, we don't even call on you to repent or resign from this site. Restitution would be a good thing. Be sensitive to the Holy Spirit and allow Christ to grow you up a bit.
I've seen a gun, knife, fists, all pulled on Erwin. I've seen people yell at him and his wife & children - but he never seems to get angry back. I know he is not perfect, so I'm sure he has gotten angry before, maybe at someone on this site. But if you could only walk a mile in a pastor's shoes of hundreds of thousands of people all over the world demanding of your time or attention. It might give you a perspective you don't have in your little world.
Please all Mosaic is asking is that you come back home and leave the past. Hope to see you this Sunday. Welcome home!

Anonymous said...

...But if you could only walk a mile in a pastor's shoes of hundreds of thousands of people all over the world demanding of your time or attention. It might give you a perspective you don't have in your little world...

Poor Erwin. And tell me again why these people who have been hurt from him should not be respected. And why shouldn't Erwin put himself in their shoes. Maybe you need some perspective. And thanks for your "genuine" invite to church. It's kind of like the bad bad wolf inviting the little piglets to dinner. "I know I've been trying to blow your house down and kill you, but hey let's have a meal together." The love at Mosaic such a wonderful thing.

Anonymous said...

Hey Moppers you just don't get it it's
God
Erwin
and then the rest of us
Once you get that fact. All will be well on planet Mosaic. Pleeze

Yvonne W. said...

All true leaders cause pain, including Christ?

Where did that come from?



Yvonne W.

Anonymous said...

Yvonne,
I don't know, but how about this beauty:

...Be sensitive to the Holy Spirit and allow Christ to grow you up a bit...

They even have an inside track on the Holy Spirit.

Anonymous said...

"...called by God to clean house."

You guys are so arrogant. What kind of "house cleaning" did Brady need?

Step after step. Re-write the past to make your present and future look better. Geeeesh!

Anonymous said...

>The few people on this site are welcome back to Mosaic anytime.

It seems like it might be time for the "few" of us to show up at Mosaic events with posters and signs:

WWW.MOSAICOFPAIN.COM

Anonymous said...

Can someone enlighten me on whether Erwin receives a salary from Mosaic, and if so, is it substantial enough to cover his mortgage payments AND the numerous transcontinental plane tickets for his "speeches" all over the world? This is of course going by the statement from Mosaic that proceeds from all of his books, do not go to him. And that includes plane tickets and lodging for all of the paid staff whenever an international yelo or origins conference takes place? In the event that it comes from Mosaic's funds, how come it is not disclosed in their financial reports?

Anonymous said...

Has everyone noticed Mosaic's site newest addition: "Online Giving" Yes, now you can offer your donations online and even set up a payment plan. I'm surprised that they don't include the following: for those times you can't attend service

Anonymous said...

As I'm reading these post, I realize that some of the "volunteer" staff and some staff don't know who you people are. I chuckle, do they know who you are. You know that old saying. They're bringing a knife to a gun battle. lol. Keep it up MOP, keep their feet to the fire.

Anonymous said...

Can someone enlighten me on whether Erwin receives a salary from Mosaic, and if so, is it substantial enough to cover his mortgage payments AND the numerous transcontinental plane tickets for his "speeches" all over the world?

Of course a pastor receives a salary - usually it is pretty low. Since Erwin is a "celebrity" pastor (no disparagement intended) his might be considerably higher than most.

When he attends speaking engagements, those that invite him have to pay a fairly hefty fee and cover all of his travel and housing expenses (business class).

Additionally, they have to, As part of Erwin’s commitment to leadership development, he believes in allowing other lay leaders, staff members or family members to accompany him to his speaking engagements. Would you be willing to provide travel expenses to accommodate this priority?

Found on his web page:

http://erwinmcmanus.com/booking/

He has such the servant's heart. And, yes he is getting rich, VERY.

Anonymous said...

If you come to wave signs - come join the F-MOSAIC & F-JESUS sign protesters, down at the Mayan evening worship times. But would rather for you to just come worship in spirit & truth the one true God Jesus Christ.
At the foot of the cross maybe we can put aside our differences. I know Erwin and the staff does love you and pray for you. We gather all the time to pray for those who hate us. You guys really aren't that bad compared to many of the groups out there. Especially the ones overseas, we know you guys have never resulted to physical harm or vandalism. So we appreciate that it is kept to free speech. And everyone at Mosaic supports your right to do that. God gives us free will. Just know that pastor Erwin & Mosaic have nothing but love for you guys. Please come home.

Anonymous said...

I have NEVER seen Erwin practice what he preachers regarding serving others. Have NEVER seen him help arrange chairs, clean around, oh I forget, thats the "volunteer staff" responsibility. Volunteers arrive as early as 5:45 am to begin the process of setting up for the 9:30 service in Pasadena. Kudos to Erwin. He has managed to re-invent slavery shielded under the label of a "servant heart" and throwing a non profit designation on top of it all. Long live the Emperor!

Anonymous said...

"Of course a pastor receives a salary - usually it is pretty low."

There are actual pastors at Mosaic who receive no salary and have to resort to having a full time job outside of mosaic to survive. And I'm not referring to any of the proteges, but site pastors. Almighty Erwin gets the big pot and the rest is distributed among his slaves, I mean, "volunteers."

Anonymous said...

Someone on this blob once mentioned about Erwin's $70,000 BMW, $45,000 Landrover, and $200 shirts. Of course he is getting rich of preaching!!! Mosaic members/staff, how many times have you heard disparaging remarks from Erwin about other churches that "don't get it?" The funny thing is that he use to speak badly about TBN and televangelist, NOW, he already been on TBN twice and building alliances with the Crouches! I can't blame a man for making a living but ae you suppose to get rich off preaching the Gospel? If God has supernaturally revealed his heart and nature to Erwin, does it mean it is okay to charge?!?!? I wouldn't have so much of a problem with it if didn't constantly make negative remarks about other pastors and churches. Benny Hinn, TD Jakes, Joel Osteen, and Erwin McManus are all the same. GETTIN RICH FROM THE BIBLE!!!

Kevin

Anonymous said...

Outsider Looking In says,

Mr. McManus,

Let this be a lesson. Be careful who you disrespect and treat with dishonesty. Your "legacy", and that of Mosaic, is certainly tarnished by all of this.

Yvonne W. said...

To Anonymous of July 31, 2008 1:51 PM


Funny you should bring up that bit about host churches being asked to pay for the travel expenses of Erwin's companions.

As part of Erwin’s commitment to leadership development, he believes in allowing other lay leaders, staff members or family members to accompany him to his speaking engagements. Would you be willing to provide travel expenses to accommodate this priority?

http://erwinmcmanus.com/booking/

I happen to think it's a good idea for Erwin to bring someone else along when he goes on his speaking engagements (it helps a pastor remain "above reproac") BUT . . .
it didn't seem right to ask a host church to pay for such a companion.

I've been looking into the IRS definitions of "excess benefits" but I found an easier to understand explanation at Don Kramer's Non Profit Issues:

http://nonprofitissues.com/public/features/point/199.html?PHPSESSID=suDUmHd88K1Chf9rxCBZ

The question asked was,

"Is it okay for our church to send the pastor and his wife to a conference of the fellowship and pay for it all if there is no reason to send the wife? How about gifts to visiting ministers? Are these examples of payments that “inure to the benefit of an individual” that could cost the church its tax exemption?"

Take a look at the answer!


Yvonne W.

Anonymous said...

"I've seen a gun, knife, fists, all pulled on Erwin. I've seen people yell at him and his wife & children - but he never seems to get angry back. I know he is not perfect, so I'm sure he has gotten angry before, maybe at someone on this site."

For someone to have been through so much with him (gun, knife, fists AND yelling at his family) you make it "seem" like he never gets angry. My point is that after being around him you would think you would know if he ever got angry or not.

Something doesn't jive here.

Cris Aguilar said...

I hope someone over at Mosaic is taking notes. Yvonne has provided some great info in her last two comments (above). She laid it out nicely. The first comment by her on this page deserves a reread for all of us. We all need our yes’s to be yes and our no’s to be no. We could fall under the trap of saying one thing but doing another. In addition, her work on issues regarding Mosaic finances, should be appreciated. I would say to send her a nice gift or something like that but that would be twisting things and considering some (not all) of you think she is attacking Mosaic, but I don’t because that would be misleading and twisting the truth therefore dishonest. I mention that not all of the staff think she (we) are attacking because we have at least two staff members that are supporters. They say the site has made an overall positive impact on the staff and that I should continue until Erwin humbles himself on certain key issues.

Back too twisting the issues and dishonesty. A comment above speaks about "pastor Erwin & Mosaic have nothing but love". Your “love” has been clearly displayed in the last few days as it has along the way on this blog and more importantly along the way directly affecting peoples lives. I don’t mean to say you have hate in your heart towards us, I really don’t know if you do but I can say that the “love” you show is disturbing.

This type of “love” has been the problem. Can you take a moment to self reflect? Reflect on your actions and the actions that you support by others around you (other staff members) and above you (Erwin). Some of you may find that you have not acted in love towards recent and past Mosaic members. Some of you may find that you have put members in positions where it was impossible for them to escape hurt. Some of you may find that you need to go back and make amends for the hurt you have caused. Some of you may find in the name of God have asked people to give and sacrifice towards the gain of your church but not to Christ. We can all use a little self refection and maybe its time to take a look. This site doesn’t need to know about your making things right (although we would love to hear those stories) but it would do wonders for the individuals that have been hurt.

Because this has not happen for some of us I have been doing a study on forgiveness. Specifically forgiveness for someone who is not willing to repent. How does that look? What does God require in regards to forgiveness? If anyone has scripture that they think is important please send it to crisaguilar@gmail.com .

It has been clear that we have struck a nerve this past week or so. The response I have gotten has been amazing. I know you are trying hard to gloss over the truth and avoid the issues by speaking about the great love and acceptance you have for us but please try realize that we are not so simple minded. We are looking for walk not talk. We have heard it all, we are looking for action or at least an honest dialog to start.

Anonymous said...

"Just know that pastor Erwin & Mosaic have nothing but love for you guys. Please come home."

Many on MOP were told to leave. Why would we now come back?

Anonymous said...

Many on MOP have friends and family still at Mosaic. Almost all of us were baptized there, probably a good percentage of us were married there, and some even dedicated their children there.

Once Erwin humbles himself and acknowledges how he treated many of the past leadership and ejected members. And he steps down and seeks healing and counsel we will gladly return to Mosaic.

We do not stay away to make a point, but rather out of obedience to the Holy Spirit.

Yvonne W. said...

Hello all,

I found this interesting review of Erwin McManus' new book, Wide Awake:

http://writingandliving.blogspot.com/2008/07/book-review-wide-awake.html


YW

Anonymous said...

Yvonne,

Great find. Not only does this review hit the nail on the head, it's also a perfect sample of what people outside of the Mosaic Bubble really think about Erwin and his books.

Truly, the emperor is wearing no clothes.

Anonymous said...

Hey Yvonne,
I just read the review on "Writing and Living." The writer shared that..."He (McManus) feels that the biggest problem in the world is our failure to develop untapped human potential. I feel that the biggest problem in the world is that there are people lost to their sin. He believes the main function of the church is to make the world a better place. I believe the main function of the church is to "To proclaim Christ to everyone, so that we might present them complete in Him." (Colossians 1:28-29)
Well written. JA

Anonymous said...

I know this is kind of going back off topic, but I want to respond to Jose's posts as well as some of the Mosaic members' posts in response to his.

Jose - I am truly sorry you had to leave Mosaic. I never met you in person, but as someone new to the church just beginning to get involved with some of them ministries, I certainly knew who you were and knew of all of your great contributions. I am horrified at the comments some of the other Mosaic members made in response to your post, how they sort of "outted you" on here. That was 100% wrong on their part and if I knew who they were in real life I would walk up to them tell them so. It was not their place. It would be one thing if you said it first, but that wasn't the case.

Also I wanted to ask you if you got involved in any small groups while you were at mosaic? I have a hard time believing that you weren't finding any discipleship if you were involved in a small group. If not, maybe you should have tried another. I'm involved in a small group that is growing me and challenging me all the time. They walk with me through the highs and lows and they are all about discipleship.

To all the Mosaic members who made inappropriate comments revealing personal information about Jose - you guys make me sick. That is not at all the way to handle things. You had no right. I sincerely hope you all apologize to him.

As to the issue of homosexuality in the church, I can't speak to Jose's specific situation of what happened and what people were saying to him - by the comments made on this site by other Mosaic members, I suspect things weren't approached the right way or in a loving way. I have a significant number of friends back home who are homosexual, and I've always made it very clear to them that I believe the lifestyle is wrong as outlined in the Bible, but I make it infinitely clear that I still love them and will continue to be their friends and walk with them on their faith journey. However I do believe there comes a point in a person's walk with Christ where their sins are called to attention (and this goes for every person not just for homosexuals) and that at that point the person must make a decision whether to abandon (or work towards abandoning) their sin to continue following christ, or to abandon christ to follow their sin. Or as someone else said, they could also leave the church and search out another faith community who "overlooks" their particular brand of sin. I don't know if Jose was at this point or not. It's not my place to know or judge that.

All this to say, I'm sorry you experienced what you did, Jose. At Mosaic I've been blessed to find a community who loves me and disciples me AS I serve alongside them.

-M

Cris Aguilar said...

M,

I appreciate your words. I believe if you sent an email or went to the offices of Mosaic in Pasadena and let them know of your displeasure of how they have addressed this issue, you may do alot of good. I am sure the leadship knows of what has happened and may know who has written these hurtful/hateful things.

I do have a few questions for you.

Why have you chosen not to use your name?

Also, you said:
I'm involved in a small group that is growing me and challenging me all the time. They walk with me through the highs and lows and they are all about discipleship.

Tell me about that. How do they grow you? How do they challenge you? What "tools" if any do they use? How are you being discipled?

Cris

Anonymous said...

http://www.godtube.com/view_video.php?viewkey=b45ceb0d1367a92bb202&page=1&viewtype=&category=

Aren't we impressed with ourselves?

Anonymous said...

Cris,
Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe most (if not all) of the mop writers were either life group leaders or PAC team leaders. As I remember life groups were all about evangelism. Bring a friend and build relationships. Now I do remember discipleship in the old days. When a person or two would spend time with an Eddie Marshall or a Holly Hair and investigate the scriptures. And learning from a mature believer who had no problem asking the tough questions. Cris, I guess a good example would be Christ and his disciples. Both are needed, evangelism and discipleship. Maybe the problem is that members of Mosaic don't know what discipleship is? Matt

Anonymous said...

NICE LINK - WOW, ERWIN WRITES A BOOK IN 40-50 HOURS! SEEMS ABOUT RIGHT.

Anonymous said...

There seems to be a rumor going on out there that the mop members are disgruntled, few and didn't serve while they attended Mosaic. All incorrect. I'm sure Greg S. or Enrique V. could verify this. Erwin and Eric are a little tainted, they have their own agenda. Remember the truth always always always comes out.

Anonymous said...

That video was a window into Erwin. Saddend me. His insecurities are self-evident.

Anonymous said...

I believe what Jose might have been saying was he is looking to be loved for who he is. Have someone draw along side of him and help him understand why homosexuality is not accepted. Disciple him to have the tools to overcome the sin, not just be told "you're gay, go away."

At this point, if you struggle with homosexuality, Mosaic is NOT a safe place. That much is clear.

Anonymous said...

Erwin McManus will take the homosexual's money for his books, but he has zero to no desire to really help them.

M said...

Cris,

I choose to remain anonymous because I am very wary of anything with my name on it online. I do a search for my name every now and then to see what's out there and try to delete as much of it as possible (that isn't professionally related). I also don't think that adding my name to my comments would make any difference. I have taken an identity on these boards so you guys know it's me when I do post.

As far as the discipleship goes...
My small group dives into the Bible every week to talk more in depth about certain topics. In the past we've looked at prayer, love, sharing our faith with others, etc. And even though I grew up in a protestant Christian church and was in church pretty much every time the doors were open, I've still managed to learn quite a lot from our studies. Sometimes we use other books (I've not seen them use any of Erwin's yet) as supplements or guides to the study but generally we stick with the Bible. Every week we also take time to worship, as well as share very honestly about what's going on in our lives. If someone is going through a hard time they are there to support, but if someone is making some life choices that don't mesh with being a Disciple of Christ - they will call you out and challenge you to re-examine.

Discipleship is the process of becoming more mature in your faith, and that can look like a lot of different things. And I definitely can't speak to all of the small groups that Mosaic has (there are a lot of them). But I can speak to mine and my experience. Discipleship is happening.

-M

Yvonne W. said...

Regarding the video clip in which Erwin McManus talks about the "process" of writing:

As an amateur writer, my favorite genre is the short story and when I have a great idea I can typically turn out a good 10 page rough draft in about a day or two. Then I take at least another two days or longer to polish up the grammar, tighten the plot lines, round out the characters, etc., etc., until I'm satisfied with the results. I haven't published any of my works yet but I've been encouraged to do so by the people who are my "test audience" (both on-line and off-line friends from around the world.)

I've participated in the National Novel Writing Month [NANOWRIMO](http://www.nanowrimo.org) held in November in which writers are challenged to create a 50,000 word "novelette" in one month's time. I "won" the challenge the first time I took it and look forward to participating again this year.

I also finished NANOWRIMO's companion websites' challenge to write a 20,000 word screenplay (written in screen play format) in one month.

Both of these writing challenges took an incredible amount of dedication and daily discipline.

For both of these writing challenges I did all of the "typing" and "imagining" myself without the benefit of a personal stenographer to record my spoken thoughts.

My daugher is also a prolific writer but her passion is for theater. Her original play won first place at our local Jr. College's high school theater arts competiton. (Actor Dana Lee, AT&T's "Mr. Stinky Fish Face", was one of the judges for this competition.) She was 15 when she wrote this play and got to see her work produced at the college this past January.

My daughter laughed when she heard Erwin's boast about how long it takes him to write an entire book.

That pretty much sums it up for the both of us.

Yvonne W.

Anonymous said...

"...but if someone is making some life choices that don't mesh with being a Disciple of Christ - they will call you out and challenge you to re-examine."

Exactly what MOP is doing in the case of Erwin McManus.

Anonymous said...

"There seems to be a rumor going on out there that the mop members are disgruntled, few and didn't serve while they attended Mosaic."

We are not surprised by this spin. Erwin likes to re-write history.

I will give him this:

Correct, MOP represents a "few" hundred past members.

Many of which were deeply involved in ministry at Mosaic: pastors, missionaries, elders, small group leaders and impact leaders, etc...

Anonymous said...

Has anyone else noticed how there hasn't been a posting by Jose for a while? Has anyone followed up and see hows he doing? I wonder if Mosaic managed to silence him after all

Yvonne W. said...

Hello all,

Did anyone else see this interview with Erwin McManus?

Christians in Cinema, Wednesday, July 9, 2008
http://www.christiancinema.com/catalog/newsdesk_info.php?newsdesk_id=666

CC.com: What was the turning point for you? When did you figure out that God might make sense of all of this?

Erwin: It was the week I turned 20 years old that I came to faith in Jesus.


(Later in the same interview. . . )

CC.com: After becoming a believer, how long was it before you found yourself thinking about perhaps being a pastor or communicator of the gospel?

Erwin: I didn't know how Christianity really worked. Really the moment I entered a relationship with Jesus, my understanding of it was you were now entirely sold out to this movement that is lead by Jesus. There was never any ambiguity in my mind. It was either all in or out. I came to Christ the evening of August 20, and I came back to college the next week. I started my first non-profit organization within two weeks of becoming a believer.


I have no idea what "non profit" Erwin McManus is referring to but I found it interesting to compare the above quote with the following information from another Erwin McManus interview with Assist News Service:

http://www.assistnews.net/Stories/2008/s08010207.htm

"As you can see, I'm not Irish; I'm actually Latin," he said. "Erwin McManus is not an adopted name, it's just an alias and I made it legal when I was in my thirties because I married as a McManus, my kids were a McManus, so I thought I should probably become McManus.

"My mom married someone who lived under an alias who was involved in 'creative underground economies' and so evidently he needed a new identity so that's how we ended up being called McManus."

He added, "I'm originally from El Salvador, Central America, and so I'm a first generation immigrant. I became an American Citizen about four years ago and grew up on the east coast from Miami to New York and then I've been in Los Angeles for sixteen years.


If Erwin McManus really did create his "first non profit organization" just two weeks after becoming a believer, then he did this before he legally changed his name AND before he became a U.S. citizen.

Weird huh?

I was surprised to learn from an expert in non profit law that it isn't illegal to start a non profit under an alias (but most states require you to file a DBA; Doing Business As) and that many non-profits have foreign citizens on their board of directors but the expert also told me that in order to obtain a state id or social security card you have to submit your legal name.

BtW, since this interview with Assist News appeared, the Wikipedia article on Erwin Raphael McManus, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erwin_McManus, now states that he was born Raphael Sandoval Meza Cardona.


Yvonne W.

Anonymous said...

"I started my first non-profit organization within two weeks of becoming a believer."

It would seem that Mr. McManus or is that, Mr. Cardona? - I'm confused - either way, it would seem that he melded both the American dream and his belief very early on. Seeing his faith as a capitalistic opportunity.

Anonymous said...

>"As you can see, I'm not Irish; I'm actually Latin," he said. "Erwin McManus is not an adopted name, it's just an alias and I made it legal when I was in my thirties because I married as a McManus, my kids were a McManus, so I thought I should probably become McManus.

Interesting, when he first came to Brady he played up the fact that he was bi-cultural. It helped him fit in better. Nothing wrong with being 100% Latino, but that is not what he initially played it as.

Anonymous said...

Yvonne,
I don't know what to think about Erwin anymore. He's got a lot of layers. He should take care of his story telling. I think his comfort zone is in the merky cloudy area. Not 100% true not 100% fabrication. Dangerous zone---A MOP MEMBER

Anonymous said...

Do you think we need to engage in private conversations to touch the souls of people? I know it sounds a little post modern, just a thought…A Navigator

Anonymous said...

A friend forwarded some information offered to members of Mosaic by Eric Bryant in his blog, including notes from the their last leadership staff meeting. One item that appears in the agenda reads:
"When people leave Mosaic, engaging in arguments or persuasion does not usually have any effect. The one question we should ask them --- "Are you going to a place where you can help your friends find Christ?" It is ok to let others go other churches. We aren't for everyone!"
I can't help but wonder, has Mosaic decided to not only officially admit that it has an image problem, but needing to come up with a plan to deal with the large number of people who choose to leave Mosaic after experiencing leadership's true colors?

Yvonne W. said...

Somebody reminded me to check out Eric Bryant's blog and I'm glad I did.

This is from Eric's post,

Suburban Decay: Advocating for City Living
http://www.ericbryant.org/2008/08/04/suburban-decay/

I am an advocate for moving into our urban areas rather than away from them. Obviously there are needs to be met everywhere, but for so long so many people and churches with economic means have been leaving our cities to get away from the “dangers” of the urban world.

As often is the case, when we run away from those we should be serving, God brings them to us (see immigration to the U.S. and now the migration from the cities to the suburbs of those in dire straits).

“Many low-density suburbs and McMansion subdivisions, including some that are lovely and affluent today, may become what inner cities became in the 1960s and ’70s - slums characterized by poverty, crime and decay.”


Huh? I guess upscale Pasadena is more "urban" than economically depressed, gang plaqued East Los Angeles. (The site of the original Church on Brady.)

Oh and let's not forget BEVERLY HILLS HIGH SCHOOL! (One of the places where Mosaic meets.)

Sorry, I'm too disgusted to comment any further.

Yvonne W.

Anonymous said...

Dear Navigotor,
I believe you should love people first with no agenda. Just love them, Jesus would do that and I believe Jesus could touch souls nicely without any help thank you.
The Pilot (Not really)

Yvonne W. said...

Anonymous, August 8, 2008 12:36 PM

Regarding the item from the leadership meeting :

"When people leave Mosaic, engaging in arguments or persuasion does not usually have any effect. The one question we should ask them --- "Are you going to a place where you can help your friends find Christ?" It is ok to let others go other churches. We aren't for everyone!"



You make an interesting point. I too wonder if this is an indication that things are not well at Mosaic. Obviously, somebody thought the topic was important enough to raise during a staff meeting.

The tone of this note indicates the subject was people who leave Mosaic on "less than friendly terms", otherwise, why would anybody feel compelled to engage in arguments or persuasion ?

I shook my head at the little disclaimer at the end:

It is ok to let others go [to] other churches. We aren't for everyone!"

Staff really needed to be told "its okay" to let others leave?

This would be funny if it wasn't about our fellow brothers and sisters in Christ.

Yvonne W.

Anonymous said...

"we aren't for everybody"

Wow... there is alot read in that statement. What about the churches doing so many good things, ministering in so many ways. Churches focused on ministies that run circles around Mosaic. People being served and serving. Bible studies, Sunday School, 12 step programs, job placement programs, homeless programs, food banks, awanas (childrens program focus on memorizing scripture), senior programs, etc.

How could Mosaic even be for most? The light may be coming on in regards to their decipleship issues, so how in the world could this one church be even close to what we all need.

I love the way my pastor (and his wife) invite people to church when we have an event that has obviously drawn people outside of its typical members. They say something like... "If you don't already have a home church, we would love to have you join us this Sunday."

Anonymous said...

I am an advocate for moving into our urban areas rather than away from them. Obviously there are needs to be met everywhere, but for so long so many people and churches with economic means have been leaving our cities to get away from the “dangers” of the urban world.

Uhhh where does Erwin live. Seen it. And its not the ghetto of Whittier. I get it, we all should go live in the urban areas except our leader the Architect. Its making sense now. Has anyone at Mosaic just sat down and read what Erwin and Eric writes. I mean really. Just sit down and read this stuff. People outside the bubble don't get it. Yvonne, your disgust is mutual.

Anonymous said...

" I am an advocate for moving into our urban areas rather than away from them."

Very interesting, this what Brady was DOING, and now Mosaic talks about the idea of doing it.

And don't forget that they took the money from selling an "inner city" urban church, the money raised to build another one, and used all of it to bail out a Chino Hills suburban church.

Cris Aguilar said...

Some of you have asked and emailed me wondering what has happened to Jose. I will be posting an interview with him on Monday.

Cris Aguilar said...

-------- Admin Note -------

I have received 3 comments in the last 4 hours that I have rejected. All appear to be coming from the same person, but unfortunately they are anonymous. This person is writing some rather tough things and I am more than willing to put them up BUT this person must either create a screen name OR you must put your name. Your name would be best, you seem to have a lot to say, lets let us all know who you are. It will be ok, in fact it may be good for you.

By the way, this person is writing in opposition to Mosaic and in favor of what we are doing.

Last note in regards to these last few comments (that I rejected), the comment in regards to Nathan Neighbour is confusing. The quote is confusing and so I went and read just about the whole article in which you comment on and it does not clarify things at all. In fact what I read completely contradicts what you are proposing he has stated. I may have missed something so correct me if I am wrong.

Cris Aguilar said...

------ Admin Note -----

I am turning the page. You can find that page by clicking the link below:

MOP Comments (Pg 12)


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