Question:
What is your perspective regarding purpose? Specifically why were you created?
I do believe there is a answer to this question but wondered what your thoughts were before I shared mine. I believe this may be part of why there seems to be such a divide in the Church today. Depending on your view, this can determine how you see the mission of your church and The Church.
Once again, what is your purpose, why were you created?
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157 comments:
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Below are 4 comments that you may have not seen due to the blogger site automatically turning the page. I am placing them here for those that didn't see them. They are separated by ******.
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Yvonne W. said...
Anonymous said...
so i don't get it, if mosaic is in a financial mess. why r they starting a new service in whittier? i hope its ok to write, Easter has passed.
March 24, 2008 8:15 PM
You're right, Easter is over now so here is a link to my latest post on Erwin McManus and Mosaic.
By the way, that is an interesting question you posed. I would also like to hear the answer to it.
Yvonne W.
Awaken Humanity's Slice of the Mosaic Pie
http://solidfoods.blogspot.com/2008/02/awaken-humanitys-slice-of-mosaic-pie.html
******
March 27, 2008 7:48 PM
Anonymous said...
Nice tribute Yvonne. On target as always. MH
*****
March 30, 2008 1:02 PM
Anonymous said...
That Bro. Tom, What a guy. He always said he wouldn't leave unless he was asked. Sorry
*****
March 31, 2008 12:11 PM
Anonymous said...
Did anyone see Erwin McManus on TBN this week? Curious what people think about that interview?
http://www.tbn.org/index.php/2/37.html
(Apr 08 episode)
J.R.
Isn't our purpose to share God's love and take the gospel to the end's of the earth? I guess its not about us
>so i don't get it, if mosaic is in a financial mess. why r they starting a new service in whittier?
Because there's a need. There is always a choice between living to our finances or living to our faith. Each must choose how they'll live, but I for one am glad to be part of a church that sees financial challenges as an opportunity to serve more, rather than an excuse to serve less.
Just watched Erwin on the PTL site. I haven't seen Erwin in awhile. He's looking a little tired. There was smooch session with Erwin for 2 1/2 minutes. And what knuckle heads are putting the Barbarian Way on themselves w/ tatooes. And Erwin doesn't seem to mind. This guy has a healthy dose of self esteem. Interesting that Erwin doesn't refer to himself as Christian, but follower of Christ. He just really feels uncomfortable being called a Christian.
I thought it was real cute that he shared that he would put his kids in harm's way. Barbarians don't look at safety. Admirable or naieve? Maybe Erwin should talk to missionaries like Dennis and Holy Hair about putting children in harm's way. But serious I was greatly concerned about his new "Mosaics" in Whittier and the Hermosa Beach areas. Kids keep your kids away from these places. I also thought it was interesting how Erwin boasted about his congregation being an average age of 25. And talked about his older members as if they were many. Just a little misleading.
A sad piece when Erwin talked about being ashamed of Christianity because of the Crusades, slavery, and the kkk. This was the most disturbing piece. Erwin doesn't know his history and probably shouldn't be talking about things he knows nothing about. It was the Christians that were the abolitionist who put an end to slavery. Has Erwin heard of William Wilberforce or John Quincy Adams. To name a couple. And the KKK was a minority of people who used the term Christianity to back up what they were doing. A small percentage of the Christian population. And its revealing how he shared that he didn't see a difference between Christians and Buddhist and Muslims. I don't know who Erwin hung or hangs around with, but I remember this little church in East LA who had some amazing brothers and sisters. Great examples; Anton Mendoza, John Aguilar, Dennis Hair, Lary Clement, Steve Walker, Tom Stricklin, Chris Crossan, Zub Buzbee, Carol Davis, Claira Welch, Coach Mushegan, Craig Wright, Linda Wolf, Eddie Marshall, Brian Peterson, Christine Romo, Olga Nava and Gary Wilson to name a few. Maybe Erwin should have visited the Church on Brady sooner. So he could meet some Christians. And please Erwin, I ask again please quit speaking for Christians. We all haven't messed up. And remember Most people go to church because they are looking for something. They're actually looking for Jesus. You don't "have" to be like the world.
P.S. If your wondering if Erwin is still struggling with pride. Listen to this piece and its full of it. Pride. Listen to him explain his use of mysticism.
P.S.S A little note or words of advice to Erwin, if you want to get a good night's sleep you might want to make things right with those you've hurt.
Because there's a need. There is always a choice between living to our finances or living to our faith. Each must choose how they'll live, but I for one am glad to be part of a church that sees financial challenges as an opportunity to serve more, rather than an excuse to serve less.
God wants us to have faith, but he also wants us to be responsible. Maybe I'll just quit my job tomorrow and live with my faith, and serve more.
Why Lord Why
"Why Lord Why"
When is the "I was blind and now I can see" going to take hold of our church. I don't want to be known as a blind barbarian.
I found an interesting article dated October 1, 2001, that Pastor Erwin wrote for the Magazine "Christianity Today" called "The Friendship Dilemma" that pastors like Jesus should make their friends with their layleaders, elders, deacons, junior pastors of their local church.
Here is the link:
http://www.ctlibrary.com/le/2001/fall/26.10.html
I come to the members of MOP and the allies of MOP and I also to the MOSAIC loyalists and Mosaic leaders and Emerging Church leaders in Peace. I come in peace and ask you all to be friends.
Lay down your spears and your swords, put down your crossbows and longbows, lay aside your shields and your maces and embrace each other as friends.
Are we not all Christian brothers and sisters ?? Are we not all of the same Church of Jesus Christ ??
Hey Anonymous,
While it is good to be someone's friend, it is even better to give someone you love "instruction".
Jesus called his disciples, his "friends". However, the word "disciple" means "one who receives instruction from another".
Jesus was primarily interested in creating "disciples" for His Church so He instructed the Twelve men He chose to follow Him in God's Word and in important spiritual "disciplines" such as: Reading and understanding the Bible, God's Word; solitude; fasting; and creating/sharing community with other Christians.
It is interesting to note that the word "discipline" means "Instruction" and it also means "training which corrects, molds, strengthens or perfects".
Soldiers receive both instruction and discipline so they can fight and function as an army or a fighting unit. Similarly, members of Christ's Church must also receive instruction and discipline in order to become true dedicated Disciples of Christ.
In military history, "Barbarians" do not receive good instruction or discipline on how to fight and function as a modern army or a modern fighting unit. Barbarians typically either rely on barbaric tactics (e.g. rape, pillage, murder) and/or superiority in numbers and/or surprise. Barbarians thus will not triumph if they lack surpirse, lack superiority in numbers or their barbaric tactics are not sufficient to defeat a disciplined modern army.
Satan's armies in these Dark Days are huge in numbers, they are very disciplined and they are not
afraid. Will Barbarians without training and without instruction defeat them ??
will Barbarians who are not dedicated disciples of Christ who know nothing of the spiritual disciplines taught by Christ be able to triumph over Satan's armies and over the worldly
values and worldly temptations that permeate American culture ?? These are very vital and hard questions...........
Well said...no more a barbarian.
Erwin wrote for the Magazine "Christianity Today" called "The Friendship Dilemma" that pastors like Jesus should make their friends with their layleaders, elders, deacons, junior pastors of their local church.
Isn't it ironic? Don't you think
Or is ironic the right word?
So the Crystal Cathedral...PTL...real Barbarian.
So how did the Awaken Conf. go? Did anyone go?
Hey Barbarians,
I was reading a history book at Borders Bookstore a couple of weeks ago about the Roman Empire. The book had a chapter about the barabrian invasions of the Roman Empire on and after 400 A.D.
The Roman Empire declared itself a Christian empire around 300 A.D. about 300 years after the death and resurrection of Christ.
Christians began preaching the Gospel of Christ to the various barbarian tribes so that by the time Italy was invaded and Rome was sacked and conquered by the Barbarians, the Barbarians did not do what they normally did, that is, burn, pillage, rape and murder.
The civilized Christians of the Roman Empire had done so a good job preaching the Gospel to the Barbarians that the Barbarians did not burn down the Christian Churches in Rome and Italy and the Barbarians did not murder the people hiding in these churches.
The Word of God had conquered the hearts and souls of the Barbarians.
Although the Barbarians destroyed the Roman Empire armies and sacked Roman cities, they spared Christian churches and the people seeking refuge in these churches. The love of God had taken possession of the spirits of these Barbarian peoples.
The Church had done its job despite the fall of the WEstern Roman Empire.
Christian Church not so bad. Except for that Slavery thing and KKK thing.
Slavery existed thousands of years before Christ came to Earth and before Christ established His Church on Earth. All the Ancient civilizations whether is the Middle EAst, the Americas, AFrica, Asia or Europe used slavery. At the time of Christ's 33 years on Earth, the Roman Empire was about 50 percent slaves. The Roman Empire ran on slavery and subjugation of peoples.
The Christian Church after the death and resurrection of Christ has worked to end slavery (e.g. work of the Christian William Wilberforce in England to end slavery in the British Empire and the work of Christian American abolitionists during the Civil War to end slavery in the U.S., etc.).
I would not consider anyone the is a member of or who supports hate organizations like the KKK to be a true Christian. When Christ returns He will divide the Church between the true Christians and those who only profess to be Christians. As it says in the New Testament, the true Christians will be known by their love, for following the Word of God and for their spiritual discernment.
I have a question for Erwin McManus regarding his appearance on PTL.
Near the beginning of the interview, (at about 9:00 into the broadcast) the hosts of PTL were promoting the Mosaic website and gave the wrong address - mosaic.com.
Erwin corrected this mistake by saying,
"Mosaic.ORG, yeah, we're a [b]non-profit."[/b]
Huh?
My guestion to Erwin is this:
What did you mean by this statement?
Somebody please correct me if I'm wrong but aren't ALL churches considered "non-profits?" According to the IRS, churches are usually granted automatic 501c3 (tax-exempt) status with the federal government. You can't get 501c3 status unless you are already a "non-profit" organization.
So what gives?
Another question, if Erwin feels this is such an important distinction, then what about his
"erwinmcmanus.COM" website?
Yvonne W.
Yvonne,
Interesting... I and another mopper had a conversation on this very topic. A little stumble on Erwin's part. However, he didn't forget to plug his new book for all those PTL'rs out there. Remember this is the very guy who can't stand all those Christians out there that give Christ a bad name. Calling the kettle black? MH
Remember this beauty from the past:
4. What books have changed your life?
Erwin: every book i have ever read.
even more so every book i have ever written. the one that changes me the most is the one i have not yet written.
http://leadershipblog.blogspot.com/2006/07/leadership
Don't forget to buy that new book this summer. buy, buy, buy. Erwin's nothing like those other con-artist out there using the name of Christ. He's a Christ Follower.
Brothers & Sisters:
Do not be surprised or alarmed when apostates take over the leadership of many churches in the U.S., Canada & England, etc. as is happening as we speak right now. This is all predicted in the New Testament that false prophets, false leaders, apostates, etc. will fall away from the Word of God and lead believers many astray. These false/apostate leaders, etc. will love Mammon aka MOney and fame more than they love God.
They will twist and manipulate the Bible to suit their own twisted interpretations and philosophies and agendas whether it be maximization of the Human potential and human talents or the Prosperity Gospel propounded by False leaders such as Joel Osteen.
Like Judas Iscariot, false leaders will sell their souls for money, for 30 pieces of silver. They will sell out Jesus Christ and the Gospel of Jesus Christ for money, position, houses, cars, fame, fortune, just like the Jewish religious leaders who conspired against Christ and murdered him along with the Roman army.
They hypocrisy of the Emergent Church movement is that they rail and criticize the estalished Church of Christ and Christianity but they committ the same errors and sins of Judas Iscariot and the Jewish religious leaders who murdered Christ, 2000 years ago.....
2000 years later, they also betray and sell out Jesus Christ and the Gospel for money, fame, fortune, reputations and an empty Gospel of human potential, maximizing human talents, worldly prosperity, worldly success, when God promises infinitely infinitely much more with the true Gospel, the true Word of Jesus Christ.
someone has had a little too much of the zealot juice.
Hey Anonymous,
zealot juice might not be a bad thing given the Lukewarm State of today's Church in most of America....Jesus apparently liked Zealots.
One of the 12 Disciples of Jesus Christ was "Simon the Zealot" aka "Simon the Canaanite".
Simon apparently took the Gospel of Jesus Christ seriously after the death & resurrection of Christ....Simon is thought to have evangelized in Egypt, Mesopotamia and Persia aka Iran, where he suffered martyrdom (death) by being SAWED in two.
I doubt many in today's post-Christian / Emergent Church movement churches will be as faithful by far as Simon the Zealot or any of the other 10 disciples who were killed / martyred. The 12th disciple John was not killed but spent most of life placed into exile by the Romans on an island where he wrote the Book of Revelation with the inspiration & guidance of God.
try some of the Gospel of Jesus Christ ; try reading and understanding it. It is really zealot juice. it inspires men and women to see the Love of God so they are willing to dedicate their lives for the Kingdom of God, so they are willing to die, suffer torture, prison, exile , all for Christ ; look at the millions of Christians dying right now for their faith in China, the Sudan, Columbia, Indonesia, North Korea, Bosnia, India, etc. etc.
try some zealot juice my brother; don't settle for plain stale gutter water of the quasi-Christian psychology/idealogy of human potential and/or
maximization of human talents.
Ok...but are you condeming Erwin because you've heard him preach or from what you've learned about him from this site? Your very passionate.
My beloved brother or sister,
I condemn no one, their actions condemn themselves and God will judge both the living and the dead, God will divide the sheep from the goats.
As for passion, it is essential to be passionate for God, passionate for Christ, passionate for evangelism and the Gospel, passionate for the Kingdom......Jesus himself was passionate;
Jesus cried when he found his Lazarus dead and he resurrected Lazarus from the tomb....Christ was passionately angry when he saw the money-changers in the Temple, his Father's House so He chased them out of the Temple....
Christ chose passionate men to follow him as his disciples; Christ did not choose lukewarm men and women to follow him. Peter sobbed and cried bitterly when he realized that he had denied Christ 3 times.
However, Peter regained his faith and upon Peter the Rock, Christ built His Church. Saul of Tarsus was a passionate man, who persecuted and killed with passion, the Jews who became Christians until on the road to Damascus, God struck him blind and then Paul, became a believer and became passionate for Christ. So passionate that he suffered imprisonment, nakedness, beatings, loneliness, hunger, shipwreck, and execution for his Lord Jesus.
Christ asks us all to be passionate for him and see the lost and the blind among us, to be passionate that they be led to Christ and not misled into false gospels, false ways, empty ways, empty gospels, empty truths, false truths.
However, to be passionate is not enough Christ asks us to be true to the Bible, true to the Word of God, true to the Gospel preached by Christ......Christ asks us to follow Him and no one else and nothing else and to become for HIM fishers of men; fishers of men's souls not fishers of men's talents/men's worldly potentials.
Christ asks us to yield a hundred fold, a hundred more times in saving men's souls (save 100 more souls), not to yield a 100 times more in our human work potential or a 100 times more in our human talents/worldly production/work productivity/ worldly success.
The long post about passion is awesome! You must have read the Barbarian Way -- that's exactly Erwin's point -- that we need to be passionate lovers and servants of Jesus in the world, being willing to risk it all for His sake. Kudos to you for catching the vision!
Hey Anonymous,
I have never read a whole book by McManus. I tried to read one book I bought for about $10 a couples of years ago where he kept rambling and repeating himself about the Passage from the Book of Samuel about Prince Jonathan, the son of King Saul and JOnathan's armor -bearer going to fight the Philistines. I only read a couple of chapters. It was a waste of money.
McManus should try to sell Bibles at a discount via Mosaic or give away free Bibles. That is what seekers and believers really need to read and study and understand not his rambling books full of secular ideas of human potential, human talents, pursuing your selfish human dreams, worldly barbarian ways, the Way is not Barbarian , the Way is the Way of Christ which is vastly vastly more encompassing than the worldly Barbarian way that McManus offers in his books which keep repeating themselves.
You can always notice a great Pastor who really follows God, the Bible and the Gospel because they push you to read the Bible and understand the Bible, buy a Bible and to study it..... They don't push you to read their own books or keep preaching about their own books. Those pastors who do that
are pushing their own agenda, their own philosophies, NOT the agenda/the way of Jesus Christ, NOT the Gospel of Christ or the Word of God.
Tragically, it is predicted in the New Testament, that many foolish seekers and foolish believers with itching ears will seek false leaders and false pastors who tragically choose to preach what is popular, what is pleasing to hear, and what is profitable for themselves to preach in the Final Days.
The Barbarian Way is not the good way, it is not the Way of Christ.
The Barbarians destroyed the Western Roman Empire and brought about the Dark Ages in Europe for about 800 years. The Barbarians destroyed Western Civilization and almost destroyed the Church of Jesus Christ. Starvation and disease plagued Western Europe after the end of the Western Roman Empire. Barbarism followed with chaos and a lack of law and order.
Murderous tribes of Barbarians raided cities and towns all of Europe from England to France to Italy. Feudalism was born to preserve some sense of law and order and to supply food.
Bloodthirsty Barbarians raided churches and monastaries for loot and gold and women. Vikings, Huns, Gauls, Goths, Visigoths, Arabic tribes out of North Africa, Saxons, etc. roamed about and there were no armies to oppose them.
The Dark Ages were caused by the Barbarians. The Bible was almost lost.
The Church of Jesus Christ was almost destroyed by these Barbarians.
The Gospel and Bible were preserved in written form by monks of the civilized Christian church in monastaries for 800 years and the monks travelled to distant lands to preach the Gospel during the Dark Ages. Eventually, the monks and the Christian churches that survived the Dark AGes converted the Barbarians to Christianity, to a belief and a faith in Jesus Christ.
Today, modern Day barbarians seek again to destroy the Church of Jesus Christ and bring about another round of moral/spiritual Dark Ages for the world and Western Civilization.
This may be a good time to re-read Ruben's Reviews on the "Barbarian Way" A MOP MEMBER
Here's the link
http://rubensreview.blogspot.com/2007/01/barbarian-at-gate.html
This is the difference between those who attend Mosaic and those who attended for years and left the church. The difference is that we get it. You don't have to be an artist to be loved or part of God's plan. I guess we realized that there is more to being a Christan than being passionate or a good speaker. And it maybe cool to diss on Christians, but people get tired of that after awhile. In the end people will just figure it out. Look at the hundreds that left Mosaic. Its just a church that got off track. It had a good begining, but it was always just a church where people worshipped God. It may have lossed its focus, but people usually figure these things out. Its the baby Christians that attend Mosaic and other Emerging Churches that need our prayers. These are the ones that have been truly mislead. I was blind but now I see. Matt
As I read these comments and the mosaic of pain as a whole I want to encourage those contributing to the site to continue as it has and continues to bring light onto this difficult issue(s). I know first hand that it is making a diffrence with the staff, elders and other leaders in the church.
I know how difficult it is to keep this type of blog on track while allowing all to have the freedom to speak. Yes, it does appear that there are some doing their best to try and distract from the real issues but the truth always prevails. God's light will always uncover the darkness. Always!
Stay focused on the issues and pray for the little children. As Matt wrote above, the young in Christ and those that don't know Him at all could be hurt. Pray that this church returns to it's roots of being a bible focused church.
All things are possible!
Yes...Thanks MOP...
Isn't there anyone around Erwin that asks him serious questions? Who's keeping him accountable? He's an elder? I never understood that even when Bro. Tom was attending? Doesn't he have a true friend looking out for him? He's been let loose to act as a barbarian and no one says a word. MH
Hello everyone,
I just came across an interesting article at "The Ooze."
(Hey Ruben, if you aren't too busy, I'd like to hear your take on this article, perhaps as one of your "reviews?")
Here is the link:
http://www.theooze.com/articles/article.cfm?id=2023
ERWIN MCMANUS: On Crave Film, Song Longings, & Storytelling
by Amy Sondova
Saturday April 12, 2008
Yvonne W.
Yvonne,
Maybe Ruben could review the Crave films. Like to hear his take...MH
We’ve been taught as Christians to tell a story that isn’t true. ‘Before I came to Jesus, I was a sinful, evil person who could do no good. Then I gave my life to Jesus and I became this great human being who’s always happy. The problem is that the story doesn’t even resonate with the person telling the story.”
It’s through telling their story, states McManus that people come to a deeper understanding of themselves, of God, and of their culture.
How do McManuses' followers justify this quote? I don't get him...can someone who does please respond...I really don't get it...
There is a comment waiting to be posted that came in at 5:41pm, about 45 minutes ago. The post has some rather interesting comments including that they and a few others are leaving Mosiac. The problem is it is anonymous. Due to it's conent I am not allowing it to be posted. If you would like to repost with your name or email me to let me know why you must remain anonymous then I can reconsider.
I heard that General Erwin was a guest on the Frank Pastore radio show in Los Angeles a few days ago on Christian radio.
I heard that Frank Pastore, the radio show host, asked General Erwin why the radio station received so many complaints from the public about Pastore inviting a heretic, apostate and false leader to speak on his Christian talk radio show.
General Erwin reportedly said that Mosaic is a Biblical church in response to this and that most Christian Churches are full of Pharisees and teach a Pharisees' Gospel but that Mosaic is one of the few churches that is not like that.
Erwin reportedly told Pastore that Mosaic and himself are the victims of unfair and unwarranted blogger criticism and that Mosaic is one of the best Christian church that he knows about in the USA. Erwin reportedly said that his critics are cowards and they all have refused his challenges to public debates at Mosaic.
Hey Anonymous,
Those are some pretty scary and interesting insights you have made into the Mosaic TAkeover of that church in Chino, CA called "Inland Community Church Inc."
I checked with the California Secretary of State and its records show there is a corporation called "Mosaic Inland" and that its corporate address is: 5540 Schaefer Ave., Chino, California. That is the same address as "Inland Community Church, Inc." which apparently has been shut down completely by MOSAIC and/or completely taken over (either without any objection by its members or with objections by its members ?? ). This may be another Church on Brady scenario where Mosaic / Erwin comes into a church takes over the leadership control and then seizes the church property and then sells it ??
Here the church property in Chino is still under the ownership title of that no longer existing corporation called "Inland Community Church Inc." ...it would be interesting to have the Church on Brady members and/or MOP members sit down and speak to the members of that Chino Church which has been taken over or overrun by Mosaic here ??
I heard Mark Driscoll preach the other day. It reminded me of how Mark and Erwin are so different. Pastor John MaCarthur rebuked both of them for their their part in the Emerging Church movement. Mark was humbled and changed. Erwin got prideful and didn't change. And that's the difference between Mark and Erwin.
Take a look at the link below regarding a talk Erwin had at CCN. Erwin doesn't seem to understand the purpose of discipleship. I guess he forgot that the Apostle Paul was discipled and didn't enter the ministry right away. Did he forget about Barnabas? How about Jesus the greatest example of them all. Didn't he disciple 12 men. Who needed discipleship. Erwin don't knock it. This may explain why new christians leave emerging churches within the first two years of their conversion. If it's good enough for Jesus it's good enough for me. Again-look at the link below.
Matt 5:24
Hhttp://www.leestrobel.com/videos/Helping/CCNT1039.htm
In regards to the comment:
Erwin reportedly told Pastore that Mosaic and himself are the victims of unfair and unwarranted blogger criticism and that Mosaic is one of the best Christian church that he knows about in the USA. Erwin reportedly said that his critics are cowards and they all have refused his challenges to public debates at Mosaic.
I would like to ask the following "critics" of Erwin McManus a question:
Cris Aquilar
Ruben Aquilar
Frank Loaiza
Robbie Sortino
Eddie Marshall
Has Erwin EVER tried to contact any of you regarding a PUBLIC DEBATE at Mosaic?!
Erwin has NEVER tried to contact ME and I have REPEATEDLY listed my email address to make such contact as easy as possible. In fact, here it is again:
yvonneneem@gmail.com
Erwin has NO EXCUSE for not being able to contact me, especially since I was in email contact with his right hand man, Eric Michael Bryant (EXECUTIVE PASTOR of Mosaic L.A.)
Eric Bryant (who is also listed as the Agent for Service of Process of Awaken Humanity) wanted to set up a "private meeting" with me to discuss the questions I was raising about the "non-profit" activities of ALL the "Awakens" tied to Erwin McManus and Mosaic. I politely declined this invitation. I would have been open to a "public" discussion but Eric never responded to my last email.
Eric Bryant is the one who cut off communication with me, NOT the other way around.
Yvonne W.
Hey Anonymous,
That is a tragically funny comment that you made about Erwin's comments on the Frank Pastor Christian radio show. Erwin says his opponents are cowards because they refuse his challenges to debate in public at Mosaic ??
Who wants to debate this slippery character ?? He twists and contorts the Bible to suit his own purposes. He is worse than a politician and in fact, he is a politician not a preacher/pastor.
He merely wets his finger and puts it up to the wind to see which way it is blowing. He bends with the wind and public opinion. He is NOT interested in creating disciples of Christ but only in creating a fan base / fans of his books; fans of his twisted New Age/man centered philosophy of maximizing human talents/ human potential and minimizing the power of God and the Holy Spirit and the Bible.
You can simply show up early at Mosaic in Pasadena for a 9:30 am Sunday service to see the committment of the Mosaic disciples
untrained by Erwin. At 9:45 am there are usually only maybe 200 or 250 people there on time sitting up front at Mott Auditorium. Then at right before 10:00 am , there is a huge influx of people coming in late into the auditorium, these latecomers make up about 70 percent of the 9:30 am service. They are not committed to Erwin and they are not committed to God. Erwin has no interest in making them discples of Christ. He twitches their ears with a little Scripture to make his sermon message sound somewhat Biblical but the substance of is message is secular and worldly. Frank Pastore has fallen pretty low to invite a charlatan like Erwin to his Christian radio program.
Why do you think Erwin is referring to this website or the few old disgruntled members of Mosaic. Your ego is so big. Mosaic is an international ministry with enemies and critics in the thousands all over the world. Many of Mosaic's mission programs have faced attempts on leaders lives and many death threats. Erwin has challenged many athesists, agnostics, witches, etc to open debates at Mosaic. Past church members that didn't get their way is hardly the "biggest" critics of this global ministry. Every church has past disgruntled members who feel they are righteous and the pastor and his leadership are going to hell. I will be very surprised if this gets post, the few others at Mosaic that know about this particular site - says they have posted here but it gets censored if it is anyway favorable towards Pastor Erwin or Mosaic. Prove them wrong.
Every church has past disgruntled members who feel they are righteous and the pastor and his leadership are going to hell. I will be very surprised if this gets post, the few others at Mosaic that know about this particular site - says they have posted here but it gets censored if it is anyway favorable towards Pastor Erwin or Mosaic. Prove them wrong.
So Cris this was an interesting comment. What say you. Are you censoring favorable comments. And Chris correct me if I'm wrong. I can only think of one person who has shared some "strange" things regarding people going to hell. And I believe many of the moppers have asked to meet Erwin in an open forum, but he has not agreed to this, I guess we can figure that one out. Yvonne, Eddie, Cris are you guys disgruntled? The dozens of people who have written here. The former missionaries, pastors, youth ministers and elder must all be disgruntled. And there has been a list of wrongs Erwin has committed over the years written on this site. NOw has he made things right with any of you guys? Its just a little hard to believe that he's been in the right in all these instances. How hard is it to pick up the phone and apologize? Hey I'll be at the open forum where he addresses these issues. But he won't. He'll tell others that these people are disgruntled, or that there only a few critics. But I do agree with the annonymous person above. I'm sure he has a lot of critics around the world. You start investigating (ala Yvonne) you find a lot of dirt that needs cleaning. And to their credit they've cleaned up some of their act. But the real credit goes to MOP.
Matt 5:24
P.S. Chris I know first hand that your site is not liked by Mosaic leadership, but it is having an affect on past members and current leadership. Can you believe it people at Mosaic are actually starting to ask quesitons. You know what that means--The door is shown to them.
To: Anonymous who posted message on 5/5/08 at 11:18 pm.
You accuse the critics of Mosaic and MOP members of having a big EGO but read your own message you egotistical fool......You state:
"Your ego is so big. Mosaic is an international ministry with enemies and critics in the thousands all over the world. Many of Mosaic's mission programs have faced attempts on leaders lives and many death threats"
You are the one with the BIG EGO; you are delusional. You think Mosaic has thousands of critics and thousands of enemies. Mosaic is barely 2000 people in the USA. The Mosaic Alliance you hallucinate about allegedly located in other states in the USA and in our countries, is a merely an inflated conspiracy by Erwin to justify Mosaic's financial misdealings via the Mosaic Alliance and Awaken Humanity entities.
The Mosaic Alliance is a huge shell game. Just like Erwin's call for more donations earlier in 2008 due to alleged financial hardships on Mosaic from the alleged paydown of the $700,000 mortgage on the Chino Hills church property, the property that is actually Inland Community Church, Inc.....this church is now allegedly controlled by Mosaic Inland. Mosaic's growth in the L.A. area is a hallucination. Mosaic has merely grown by taking over and overrunning an existing church in Chino Hills.
I am involved at a Mosaic in the Southeast and we aleast have 2,000 durring our 4 woship times. I have visited the Mosaic in Tokyo and it easily has around 15,000. So maybe you want to believe Mosaic is just 2,000 people in LA, but the vision is worldwide and growing. The Shintu monks in Japan are much more of a force to be reckon with then this local site. Mosaic does not hide its critics, we are updated all the time with website listings, articles, and hate mail. This site was on a list released this past winter - that is how I heard about you guys. Hope you guys find your peace.
Annonymous,
Mosaic could have a hundred churches. Does this mean they are in God's will. Look at the Mormons, their doing a better job then you guys, but I don't think its all about the numbers do you? Remember the members of MoP were part of Mosaic. Some recently some 5 years ago, some longer. And you better believe your updated on this site. This site has had thousands of hits (info. given by Cris), you must be a first timer. I think you need to do some serious reading (praying, talking to people, asking questions) Come on now. You must have something better than we have thousands. This little site has overcome your thousands. Come on. Are you serious. Bro. its all about truth, if we don't say it the rocks will. (I know a little dramatic-but thousands please)
Anonymous,
You might want to go back and read the MOP mission. Peace has already been given to us through our Lord Jesus Christ. We now pray for Erwin to make thinkgs right (Matt 5:24. Why don't you ask him why he won't meet w/ us in an open forum to address these issues? I'm sure Cris can't wait to shut down MOP. That would mean Erwin is no longer hurting people, the church's finances see the light of day and Erwin no longer spews out his "mystic" theology. Breaks my heart to know that there is just one person who attends Mosaic and buys into it. One is too many.
Matt 5:24
"Has Erwin EVER tried to contact any of you regarding a PUBLIC DEBATE at Mosaic?!"
I have never had a formal e-mail contact from Erwin. I have never heard about any debate but I would be glad to have one. I do know and have documented about Frank Loaiza’s constant attempt to meet with Erwin, either there or anywhere, but no response. Frank is still waiting…
Concerning the person who wrote this: "The Shintu monks in Japan are much more of a force to be reckon with then this local site. Mosaic does not hide its critics..." If this were true, that the site has no force, and that Mosaic does not hide its critics, then why did some on staff call the cops to attempt to shut it down? Yours truly.
To Anonymous,
your comments on May 6, 2008 at 9:00 pm about Mosaic's great opponents including "Shintu monks" shows how strong and insightful a Christian you really are....I am being sarcastic here you fool lacking spiritual discernment.
Like someone else said numbers do not really mean much to God. When Elijah the prophet was on the run and being hunted down by the evil King and his wife Jezebel and the priests of Baal, he was virtually the last true man of God left in all of Israel. The worship of Baal was in vogue and there were thousands of Baal priests. Except for Elijah and about only 7,000 other Jews, no one in Israel was worshipping the God of the Bible.
Numbers here in that example, would show that Baal was the true way. Numbers do NOT show that Mosaic is the true way. The true Way is the Way of Jesus Christ. Mosaic's teachings and theology are truly distorted and they twist the Word of God and the Gospel of Christ if you read and truly understand the Bible. Erwin has openly said that he does not want his followers to spend their time reading and studying the Bible but instead to spend their time experiencing life.
You can not be a disciple of Christ without following and studying the Word of God, the teachings of Christ (the Son of God) and the teachings of God the Father.
Numbers are not the game and do not point to the truth. Joel Osteen packs 20,000 fools every week into his church to hear the twisted Prosperity Gospel in the Last Days and Osteen sells millions of his foolish books saying that God is a Santa Claus handing out money, success, fame and prosperity.
The Mormons grow by leaps and bounds but they are a deviant cult, a worldwide cult that does not recognize Jesus Christ as the Messiah. The Mormon Church is said to be the first new major religion in 1,000 years (since Islam) now as it approaches a worldwide membership of 70 million followers.
Erwin and Mosaic do not create or train true disciples of Christ but followers of a foolish, worldly man-centered philosophy with trimmings of the Bible used as parseley. May God have mercy on McManus and the elders/leaders at Mosaic for misleading so many, misleading so many like the Shintu monks, propagators of the Prosperity Gospel and the supporters of Mormonism in these Last Days.
Read the Christian non-fiction book "The Kingdom of the Cults" and you will see that Matthew 24 predicts an explosion of false prophets like Erwin and an explosion of cults in the end of days. I am sorry and saddened to see that you are just another fool following a false leader, a wolf in sheep's clothing.
Anonymous said... on May 5, 2008 11:18 PM
Why do you think Erwin is referring to this website or the few old disgruntled members of Mosaic. Your ego is so big. Mosaic is an international ministry with enemies and critics in the thousands all over the world. Many of Mosaic's mission programs have faced attempts on leaders lives and many death threats. Erwin has challenged many athesists, agnostics, witches, etc to open debates at Mosaic. Past church members that didn't get their way is hardly the "biggest" critics of this global ministry. Every church has past disgruntled members who feel they are righteous and the pastor and his leadership are going to hell. I will be very surprised if this gets post, the few others at Mosaic that know about this particular site - says they have posted here but it gets censored if it is anyway favorable towards Pastor Erwin or Mosaic. Prove them wrong.
As far as censorship goes, that is simply not true. I have stated this in the past and will do so again. I don't know what else to say but this is not true. Is it possible that I censor in favor of MOP is someone actually lying to you? Impossible? Possible? The next time they say this to you I would ask did this happen to you or did you hear this was happening. The insulation is thick around the halls of Mosaic.
Concerning Erwin's statements on the radio last week I cannot comment directly since I have not heard it. If anyone has a link to that broadcast please send to me or to the blog.
You mention past members that didn't get their way. I am always amazed at how those around Erwin can minimize what he has done without first calling him to repent and stop treating people like trash. If all that is being said about him is so wrong why is he not calling them to ask why is this happening. Remember most if not all of these people he called friend. At least one a best friend. If he is innocent then why not a call to say... hey bro/sis I was concerned to hear you are hurt with me OR something that is close to humble. This is NOT complicated. This is 101 Christianity. And guess what, it can still happen. Erwin can repent but when will those around him take action. Is it too hard to see that he has done wrong to individuals? It's probably just easier to call us kooky, angry, disgruntled past members.
You mentioned past members believing their pastors were going to hell. I do not pass judgment on this pastor's soul or anyone else for that matter. I also don't believe anyone on the site has done so. Please correct me if I am wrong on this but I don't believe this has happened. The reason that I wouldn't and couldn't do that is because I am not judge of the human soul. That job goes to God alone.
Also, if I can correct Anonymous who wrote on May 6, 2008 9:47 PM that we were apart of the church as early as 5 years ago. That is incorrect. There are MOP members/contributors/encouragers whom are current members of Mosaic and quite a few that have left this last year. Unfortunately, Erwin has continued the pain and he has hurt others in this last year. This is not an issue that happened years ago that needs to be put to rest, the pain that Erwin causes continues. There are current members and current staff members who have contributed and continue to encourage this site to push forward.
Well... this proves them wrong about posting your comment. We have been open to debate the issues. If you remember, about 1 year ago we created a sight that would limited to those who used their real names in hopes it would create a "safe" place for a more focused debate. There were no takers on the Mosaic side of the issue. We see wrong doing on several fronts and we are addressing it the best we know how. I know I will be judged for my participation. I take that seriously. I don't see another option from where I stand.
Friends:
Here is the link to the Christian radio show by Frank Pastore 99.5 KKLA radio , that featured the apostate/heretic/false leader Erwin on April 30, 2008. Clearly, Frank Pastore has stooped low to boost his ratings by having this jester and charlatan on his show.
http://www.kkla.com/blogs/fpastore/
Erwin reportedly while on the show, belittled his critics and bloggers like MOP who opposed him in any way, shape or fashion, as "small-minded, weak-minded Pharisees without any vision for the future of Christianity and the Church" and as "cowards who refuse his demands to debate him in public at MOSAIC".
I think annonymous brings up a good point. We should have a public debate regarding the things that have been discussed on this site. I'm willing to put away my questions regarding theology to focus on those who have spoken out regarding the "pain" they received at Mosaic. Its no wonder that most people who leave Christianity leave because someone hurt them. I pray that this hasn't happened in great numbers at Mosaic. I think that it is now the responsibility of those who attend Mosaic and who have read this site and its comments should ask, or request a public meeting with those from this site and Pastor Erwin. You could also appeal to your elders. I believe they are still Rick Y., Enrique M. and Greg S. I think we all would like to see resolution. And then we can later talk about the church finances and theology. It will be an appropriate beginning.
Jacob A
Yes I agree numbers do not matter. I just posted that reply because one of the anti-mosaic people said that Mosaic only has 2,000 - so their point was it is small. So I was just correcting that statement. You guys should be proud that the little church called Brady Baptist or whatever got its name changed to Mosaic and is now spreading the love of Jesus. I do believe Erwin had made it clear that he will not debate or fight with other Christians, especially in public. Erwin does debate openly other relgious leaders (but not Christian) and athesist/humanistic leaders.
I will be very surprised if this gets post, the few others at Mosaic that know about this particular site - says they have posted here but it gets censored if it is anyway favorable towards Pastor Erwin or Mosaic. Prove them wrong.
Just a little info. You cannot edit comments on blogger. You either accept or don't accept. There isn't an edit button. If you truly believe that Cris edited comments then you probably should have your friends contact him. They won't, because you know he didn't. You know that and your phantom comment writers know that. Do not make up stories here. This is why this site is up. Get your act together. The truth will set you free.
You guys should be proud that the little church called Brady Baptist or whatever got its name changed to Mosaic and is now spreading the love of Jesus.
Friend, I don't want that kind of love. It hurts. Its damaged families and reputations. That love we could do without. And the church was called "The Church on Brady." Believe us past members are in no way proud to be associated to the organization that it has become. You could have 2000 or 4000 members. Its still an organization which preaches a man centered theology and has no real concern for discipleship for the new member. That's why they leave brother. That's why they leave. But your pastor's a little stubborn. He won't admit wrong. He just won't. But I have a dream...
MH
P.S. You better believe he won't debate. He knows he has to put a mirror to himself. He won't debate christians, but he'll put them down every opportunity he gets and he'll share how his church does it right. Someone better be careful. Ya know? Sounds just too scarey. But friend, you've made your choice. Sounds like you've got it real bad.
Brothers & Sisters:
The true act of sin and/or sin of omission by Erwin, is that he completely neglects to teach, grow, and disciple new believers that have gathered at Mosaic over the past 20 years.
Erwin, merely proclaims his man-centered version of the Gospel and merely gets new believers into the doors at Mosaic but after that these new believers are not taught the Bible, do not grow spiritually and they are not transformed into committed disciples of Christ. These new believers then leave Mosaic after 6 months or 1 or 2 years, no better off than when they came.
A true "church" of Christ must gather new believers together in a teaching, growing, worshipping and discipling environment.
Read Paul's Letter to the Colossians (1:28):
"We proclaim him, admonishing and teaching everyone with all wisdom, so that we may present everyone perfect in Christ."
It is great to "proclaim" the Gospel to everyone both in reached and unreached areas of our cities, our nation and our world.
However, according to this verse, we also want to admonish and teach everyone to the end that each may be presented perfect in Christ. This can only happen when new believers are gathered in a true teaching, growing, worshipping, and discipling environment based upon the Bible. This environment does not exist for new believers at Mosaic.
FYI:
I posted a comment at KKLA regarding the April 30, 2008 broadcast of the Frank Pastore Show. I asked if it was possible to hear a repeat of the show or obtain a transcript. So far, I haven't gotten a response back but I'm hoping I can get this information soon so I can verify just what it was that Erwin said about his critics.
I also sent out emails to a few of the more prominent on-line critics of Erwin McManus just to see if perhaps they had ever received a "challenge to a public debate" from Erwin.
Pastor Ken Silva of Apprising Ministries:
http://apprising.org/
. . . wrote back to me to say that he has NEVER received such a challenge but that he would be more than willing to debate McManus. He also told me that he had received an email from someone calling herself the secretary for Eric Bryant (Executive pastor of Mosaic, L.A.) about setting up a private meeting with Eric "to answer any questions he might have." Pastor Silva wrote back to set up such a meeting but has received no reply from Mosaic. He has been waiting for more than a year now for a reply to his request.
This doesn't surprise me since I too have been waiting for more than a year to get a response from Eric regarding my last email to him.
Pastor Silva also confirmed a question I posed to him about the Mike Corley Radio Show. During one of his broadcasts, Mike Corley tried to get Erwin McManus to respond to his critics on-air but McManus turned down his invitation.
Just a few minutes ago I received a response from Brannon Howse of Christian Worldview Weekend:
http://www.christianworldviewnetwork.com
He too has NEVER received such a challenge from Erwin McManus. Mr. Howse wrote:
" I would challenge him to a live radio debate anytime...."
Hmmm . . .
It seems to me the ball is in Erwin's court now.
Yvonne W.
Erwin will never pick up your ball of drama. Face it, this fanatsy that each of you have about fighting with Erwin in some big arena is not happening. I would leave Mosaic if he gave you fools the time of day. The Southern CA Mosaic has so many small disciple ship groups and programs going on. I just think you guys have a denominational difference. Why not start your own church and show all the other Christians how to do it right - instead of complaining about it. My particular Mosaic I worship at going on 6 years now has really had a huge positive impact on my life. Since I made Jesus Christ my Lord & Savior at a Mosaic outreach in Atlanta, GA where God used Erwin to open my eyes to the truth - my life has never been better. I now have been happily married for 5 years and have 2 beautiful children. The strong teaching on God's character at Mosaic Church's have given me the tools to win favor at my job to where I have been promoted numerous times and more important win others to Christ. That is my story and pray that each of you may find your peace in Jesus Christ. It will not come from trying to debate or fight with a man. I use to blame others for my hurt, but Jesus set me free. I pray for your freedom, my friends.
...Why not start your own church and show all the other Christians how to do it right - instead of complaining about it. My particular Mosaic I worship at going on 6 years now has really had a huge positive impact on my life. Since I made Jesus Christ my Lord & Savior at a Mosaic outreach in Atlanta, GA where God used Erwin to open my eyes to the truth...
Sounds like Mosaic has had a huge impact on your life. Your response reminds me of past responses from members of Mosaic. Who cares about the truth, we're just all disgruntled. We're all nuts, Erwin isn't neuroric, he never has gotten psychological help. Now how Erwin opened your eyes? And No need to start our own church, just having a public debate. Can't really have them at Mosaic. Its just that Mosaic's issues are glaring. And this site really has no issue with Mosaic of Georgia. These people who write here know Erwin. Pastor's, teachers, life group leaders, youth group leaders, elder, etc. Maybe your church preaches the same man-centered theology. I sure hope not. More importantly I hope your Pastors don't treat its members as Erwin has. But then again your in Georgia. Who really cares about us? We Know Erwin doesn't... Sensitivity goes a long way.
On that Frank Pastore Christian radio show in L.A., McManus said he just turned 50 years old and that he was starting to feel a little tired. He admitted on the show that he is about 25 to 30 years older than the average young adult attending Mosaic in Pasadena. He admitted that it is a constant struggle for him to remain "in touch" with the young crowd listening to him.
I did happen to see McManus speak a few months ago in L.A. and he really did look physically and mentally tired. His face showed fatigue and stress.
Maybe he should take it easy and do "infomercials" on late night TV instead of trying to constantly twist and contort the Bible and Gospel every week to please the ears of his young crowds in L.A. At least with TV infomercials , every one would already know where he has always been coming from marketing and advertising himself instead of the true Word of God and the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
As for the fool at the Mosaic in Atlanta, I guess you buy into the man-centered Prosperity Gospel; happy marriage with kids and job promotions at work , are the fruits of doing God's work ?? Converting your friends at work to the human potential Gospel and the human-centered Gospel of Mosaic ??
Read the New Testament carefully my friend.
The fruits of following the Gospel are hardship, persecution, discrimination, oppression, poverty, want, loneliness, trial, and even intense suffering. Read Matthew 24 and 25 and Romans and Acts and Corinthians. The trials of Paul the Apostle. All the 12 disciples except for John suffered death, torture and execution for their faith. Sounds like you should get together with Joel Osteen, another false leader in these last days.
Are you saying all those scriptures in the New Testament are to be ignored??? The ones that challenge us to challenge others in regards to how we treat people, how we instruct others, how we instruct those about whom Jesus is and why he came among us.
I don't get it. It sounds like as long as you are doing well in your life then what you are hearing and being taught must be right.
This guy has hurt individuals and his teachings are moving away from the scriptures. Among other glaring issues don't forget that he said Mosaic would be buying a building in Los Angeles and gathered quite a bit of funds, there is no building to show for those funds. I was on the team that asked people to give BEYOND what they would typically give. Believe The Impossible. We got the impossible all right. We got no building but he took our money. Sell off all the extras, no needs for 2 cars when you have one. It's time to sell off grandma's jewelry. Hey, guess what happened. People did it. They sacrificed and Mosaic gathered hundreds of thousands of dollars. A BUILDING WAS NEVER BOUGHT! There was never an announcement that a change of plans was in the works. But from what I hear he is now telling people he was NEVER going to buy a building. It was NEVER in HIS plans.
Are you saying we should just stick our heads in the sand even though we know wrong has been done. Pretend that there was no pain. Look the other way as people continue to walk out of that church after giving 5, 10, 20, 30 years of their lives rejected and tossed away like trash. Do we just hope it stops? Do we just put our arms around these people and say as long as Erwin is telling people about his Jesus we cannot and will not do anything. As long as Mosaic Paris and Mosaic Idaho are growing and thriving then we won't challenge him much less rebuke him.
Tell me seriously; is that what you are suggesting?
I sent an emai to Frank Pastore asking him if I could get a transcript of his April 30th show or a link to where I could hear the show. I'd really like to hear for myself what Erwin's exact words were.
I'm hoping Mr. Pastore will respond.
In the meantime, I just got a reply to my question from Ingrid Schlueter of Slice of Laodicea.com:
http://www.sliceoflaodicea.com/
She has NEVER received a "challenge" from Erwin either.
Still looking . . .
Yvonne W.
Kim McManus appeared on PTL for their Mother's Day special.
http://www.tbn.org/index.php/2/37.html
Odd, I would have thought PTL was too "civilized" for Erwin McManus's barbarian ways.
Yvonne W.
My Dear Brothers and Sisters,
For any that don’t know me I attended The Church on Brady from 1982 to 1993 when my wife and I joined with Steve Walker and others to start Gateway Community Church. The transition to Erwin was happening just as we were leaving and therefore we did not attend while Erwin was Pastor.
To be to the point, I am writing to encourage you to shut down this blog. I am doing so for a number of reasons.
First, because of the anonymity of the blog, many accusations have been launched without any proof of their validity and without any accountability regarding what is being charged. It reminds me of a gang fight where some of the bystanders jump in and throw kicks and punches because they know they can only throw the punches when the larger combatants have their attention divided by the fight at hand. If you are going to launch an accusation at another brother at least have the courage to identify yourself. Not by your initials or by some code name, but by your real name.
Secondly, by broadening your primary aim beyond Erwin’s alleged abuse of power I believe you have diluted your chances of ever having any kind of meaningful dialog or resolution to the hurt many have expressed. It appears that you are trying to throw whatever you can up against the wall to see what sticks. I believe the course of action when you have been offended is to go to that brother and be reconciled in regard to that offense, not gather as much evidence you can regarding any wrong that person may have done and broadcast it to the world.
In the mission statement there is a call for the resignation of Erwin and the elders. I’m not sure it is the place of former members of a church to call for the resignation of the current pastor and elders, I believe that is the place of the current members. Some have said that the purpose of this blog is to follow the last part of Jesus’ instruction in Matthew 18 that if your brother refuses to listen to take him before the church and that because there is not an opportunity to take Erwin before the church, this blog would serve that purpose. I believe you have made your case before Mosaic through this blog. Now I encourage you to shut it down and let Mosaic settle this in-house before God. If Erwin does not listen to the church, we are to “treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.” The ironic thing here is that pagans and tax collectors are the people Jesus chose to love.
Sincerely,
Bruce Welch
welchbru@aol.com
Bruce,
Your a very wise man. I think the struggle maybe has this site helped? Has Erwin watched his p's and q's? I think in the three areas that has been addressed by the MOP website has had a deep impact on the church, and not just Mosaic. Leadership is more aware of their surroundings. Leaders in "high" places have thanked us for posting at Mosaic (even if its in a whisper tone). However, I question why more don't write themselves. They don't mind us doing the work for them. That bothers me. And this site maybe the greatest blessing to Mosaic and Erwin. Erwin finally has accountability. But then again maybe we're not to be his accountability. I especially get a little bothered when some posters are unkind on both sides. I think the words "fool" or "general" are too harsh. Tough one. Thanks for your post. MH
MH,
Thank you. Who are you?
Bruce Welch
Because of my association with Mosaic and friends who attend, I do not feel comfortable shareing my full name. I hope you understand. I know there are others who feel the same, so I understand why some people post annonymously. MH
Dear Bruce,
Wow, it's been far too long since I've heard from you! I hope you and your's are doing well.
I understand your concerns but unfortunately, I don't share your conclusions. I know that a lot of people post anonymously on this site and that bothers me a great deal. I don't care who the poster is, whether he/she supports MoP or Erwin, in my eyes EVERYONE should take responsibiility for what they write in public and own their own words. I have said this repeatedly throughout this whole site.
This is why I do, in fact; use my REAL first name and initial of my last name. I've already explained that I don't choose to use my full last name because of a previous problem with on-line security but the leadership of Mosaic knows EXACTLY who I am and I'm sure you do too.
I'd like to address your three points:
You wrote -
First, because of the anonymity of the blog, many accusations have been launched without any proof of their validity and without any accountability regarding what is being charged.
Have you had a chance to read the items I have posted at my own blog, Solid Foods? I don't have any control over what is posted at MoP, this site is run solely by Chris Aquilar.
I can only speak for myself when I say that I have done my absolute best to provide accurate citations throughout the articles I have posted.
Again, I take full responsibility for every word I have written and sign my name at the bottom of each post. I have even kept the same screen name, Yvonne W., as my identification when posting at other websites so that people will know it is me.
Take some time to read my articles and pay close attention to the quotes that are directly attributable to Erwin McManus. If you still feel my concerns lack validity, then I will be willing to discuss them with you.
Your second point was:
Secondly, by broadening your primary aim beyond Erwin’s alleged abuse of power I believe you have diluted your chances of ever having any kind of meaningful dialog or resolution to the hurt many have expressed. It appears that you are trying to throw whatever you can up against the wall to see what sticks. I believe the course of action when you have been offended is to go to that brother and be reconciled in regard to that offense, not gather as much evidence you can regarding any wrong that person may have done and broadcast it to the world.
Bruce, it is my understanding that MoP was created IN RESPONSE to people's frustration at not being able to hold any type of meaningful dialog or resolution with the leadership of Mosaic, including Erwin. The approach you recommend HAS ALREADY BEEN TRIED but to no avail.
I myself was willing to hear what Eric Bryant had to say about the issues I've raised in my own blog but HE is the one who eventually cut off communication with me. I asked Eric a series of straight-forward, "yes or no" standard questions that any concerned member of the general public might ask of a non-profit organization (in this case, Erwin McManus' "Awaken") and instead of simply answering "yes" or "no", Eric sent back a short paragraph with conflicting and contradictory responses.
Why? I don't know why especially since I did NOT get the same reaction from the OTHER non-profit organizations I contacted. Those people were quite happy to respond to my questions with clear, concise answers.
Lastly, you wrote:
In the mission statement there is a call for the resignation of Erwin and the elders. I’m not sure it is the place of former members of a church to call for the resignation of the current pastor and elders, I believe that is the place of the current members. Some have said that the purpose of this blog is to follow the last part of Jesus’ instruction in Matthew 18 that if your brother refuses to listen to take him before the church and that because there is not an opportunity to take Erwin before the church, this blog would serve that purpose. I believe you have made your case before Mosaic through this blog. Now I encourage you to shut it down and let Mosaic settle this in-house before God. If Erwin does not listen to the church, we are to “treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.” The ironic thing here is that pagans and tax collectors are the people Jesus chose to love.
Personally, I'm not calling for anyone's resignation. I just want to see some accountability at Mosaic.
People who are still at Mosaic have thanked me for my efforts and I know that the leadership there has started to pay greater attention to the ways in which they conduct church business.
I don't believe the issues I have raised in my blog would have been addressed had I NOT gone public and I don't think they will be resolved if I choose to be silent now.
Bruce, the sad reality is that Erwin McManus IS NOT "a pagan or a tax collector," he is the PASTOR of a major, metropolitan church community. I believe I have done a good job of documentating specific instances in which his actions have caused offense to others yet so far, there has been no response on his part.
The Bible tells us that pastors are called to greater accountability before God.
Perhaps this is one reason why Erwin has chosen to abandon the title of "pastor" in favor of the self-appointed title, "cultural architect."
Yvonne W.
This is the email I sent to KKLA and the response I received:
Dear Mr. Pastore,
I am a new listener to KKLA and missed hearing your April 30th, 2008 broadcast. Several people I know (who did hear the broadcast) informed me that Erwin McManus was a guest on your show and that he made a curious statement in regards to his blogging critics; something to the effect that his critics are "cowards" and that they have refused his "challenge to a public debate at Mosaic."
Since I didn't hear the actual broadcast myself, I wanted to verify if this is indeed what Erwin McManus said. Since I'm new to KKLA I don't know if it's possilble to hear a repeat of this broadcast or obtain a transcript.
I also wanted to know if McManus was referring to his critics who are Christian or non-Christian.
Thank you for your time,
Yvonne W.
(Former member of Mosaic L.A.)
----------
Frank Pastore to me
show details May 9
Yvonne,
We don't remember him using those words, but, he and Frank talked about people thinking he (Erwin) is Emergent... Erwin wanted to come on the show, and is open to being questioned regarding these matters. He wasn't hostile at all.
Hope this helps!
Blessings, Staff
Sorry, we don't have tapes.
So, I wasn't able to verify Erwin's exact words by contacting KKLA.
Did anyone have the foresight to tape this show for themselves? If so, I'd like to hear from you.
Yvonne W.
"Because of my association with Mosaic and friends who attend, I do not feel comfortable shareing my full name. I hope you understand. I know there are others who feel the same, so I understand why some people post annonymously. MH"
MH, I don't understand, I'm not sure what the problem is or what you may be afraid of. Serious charges are being made here. It is irresponsible to levy charges against someone without identifying yourself. This goes back to why I think this blog shoud be shut down.
Bruce Welch
Sorry Bruce,
We'll have to agree to disagree. And I have not made any charges. I have informed, corroborated etc. Erwin has been his worst enemy. Posting his own words and posting things he has said is what I have contributed. I have at times given my opinion. If I am wrong I will have to answer for it. As Erwin will answer for his deeds. Erwin has given out the word that people are not to speak out on this site from Mosaic. Some have ignored that and others have gotten a good talking to. So I choose to write MH.
Peace
Cris,
I don't know about this discussion on anonymous and I don't care, but answer me this:
1. Does Robert, Bro. Tom and Carol know about this site?
2. If so, have they asked you to take this site down?
3. If not, have they encouraged you to keep it up?
Just a question, and I choose to write anonymous because I can.
Anonymous
I am pretty sure each of the 3 people you mentioned are available via phone or email so that you can ask them whatever it is that you care to ask them.
I would rather not comment.
Bruce,
I appreciate you writing in your concerns and although we disagree on several points, I do take your words to heart and will continue to think them through.
Here are the points you made:
First, because of the anonymity of the blog, many accusations have been launched without any proof of their validity and without any accountability regarding what is being charged. It reminds me of a gang fight where some of the bystanders jump in and throw kicks and punches because they know they can only throw the punches when the larger combatants have their attention divided by the fight at hand. If you are going to launch an accusation at another brother at least have the courage to identify yourself. Not by your initials or by some code name, but by your real name.
I agree with your point and at times hate the direction of where the blog is taken by certain anonymous posters. The problem that I face is that by not allowing the anonymous posts it basically shuts down any dialog between certain people, specifically current members at Mosaic. That said, I would say your point hits home and I am thinking this through. If anyone else has input on this particular issue please speak up (thanks Yvonne). I have contemplated forcing the issue but have not done so to due to my point. As you know I post with my full name and choose not to post anonymously. The way I see it is that God knows all and we are working in His Kingdom and this life is so short , it’s not as though we are going to remain anonymous, the truth will eventually come out. It also helps me keep my words in check. I write knowing everyone knows it is me writing. I am accountable for my words.
Once again, you make a good point here.
Secondly, by broadening your primary aim beyond Erwin’s alleged abuse of power I believe you have diluted your chances of ever having any kind of meaningful dialog or resolution to the hurt many have expressed. It appears that you are trying to throw whatever you can up against the wall to see what sticks.
I disagree. I believe the primary aim hits on the main three areas in which there are real concern. Some on our side of the argument would say the abuse of power is the main point and should be the focus. There are many accounts with (and without) people names attached of pain Erwin has caused. Others have argued that the overwhelming issues in regards to financial matters are the catalyst to bringing change to the other areas and should be the focus. While others felt the entire reason for speaking up was due to the fact that Erwin has turned against Christian teaching and because of this abuse of the word we must speak out.
I am solely responsible for the Primary Aim and I chose the words based on where I felt we were as a group collectively. It happens to be that I saw all three areas as serious issues to be included. I saw first hand how Erwin's poor treatment of others decisions and how that affected their lives, far from how a pastor should treat people. I also was a member of the Believe the Impossible team where we asked people to give sacrificially for a new church building. People not feel deceived. Lastly, as time passes on his preaching is getting more and more biblically unsound.
I believe the course of action when you have been offended is to go to that brother and be reconciled in regard to that offense, not gather as much evidence you can regarding any wrong that person may have done and broadcast it to the world.
If you know something I don't as to him being available to talk in regards to the hurt he has caused please let me know. It is my understanding is he is NOT available publicly or privately.
In the past he has met individuals with the understanding it would be Erwin and that individual. To the surprise of that individual there were 3 - 6 others in the room and that individual felt very ganged up on. I could understand if he doesn't want to meet alone but he also has to understand why we wouldn't want to meet alone especially considering his track record. (Side note, MANY thought they were alone in their hurt and alone in how they were treated and alone in how they were ganged up on until MOP). It is my understanding, most from our side of the argument would meet with him (public or private) but he can't bring 5 people with him while we are only allowed to come alone.
Once again, it is my understanding that Erwin is not available. If this is not the case I know of several who would like to set up a meeting.
In the mission statement there is a call for the resignation of Erwin and the elders. I’m not sure it is the place of former members of a church to call for the resignation of the current pastor and elders, I believe that is the place of the current members.
MOP is a collection of former and current members of Mosaic. I do administer the site but I can tell you truthfully that I have been encouraged by former and current leaders of the church at just about every level.
Some have said that the purpose of this blog is to follow the last part of Jesus’ instruction in Matthew 18 that if your brother refuses to listen to take him before the church and that because there is not an opportunity to take Erwin before the church, this blog would serve that purpose. I believe you have made your case before Mosaic through this blog. Now I encourage you to shut it down and let Mosaic settle this in-house before God. If Erwin does not listen to the church, we are to “treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.” The ironic thing here is that pagans and tax collectors are the people Jesus chose to love.
Although, ideally it would be great for Erwin to see where he has gone wrong and repent. If that does not occur then the hope is that his elders would see where he and they are going wrong and repent. If that doesn’t happen then the community of Mosaic here in LA should take action and ensure that things change. If that doesn't happen then I believe we need to take it to The Church to warn others of what is happening in this church and what could happen to The Church. I believe this is biblicly sound and there are examples of this in the word.
I’m sure most of the time this blog does not feel loving, but from my prospective it is loving. Erwin has done wrong and we have not looked the other way. If we had looked the other way or buried our head in the sand or simply kept quiet then that would prove to be unloving. Jesus loves the false teachers, merchants in the temple, thief on the cross, Peter whom denied Him, and all other sinners; He just treated them different according to what they needed. I believe this is the most loving thing we can do for Erwin.
Bruce your thoughts on my thoughts are welcome.
Anyone else have any thoughts?
Bruce,
Your post has had given me a lot to ponder. I do want to first state that I have the deepest respect for you. But I don’t think this is any surprise to you. So your words carry deep weight. I know that many of the writers on the MOP side have gotten to this place on various paths. I know it took me a long time to write. I wanted to make sure I was right with God. I also made it a point to contact Erwin. That didn’t go as well as I hoped (He didn’t want to meet), but I did get a chance to let him know that I would be writing on the Emerging Church and his involvement. And that’s why I write. I believe it would be wrong of me not to. If you do a web search on the Emerging Church you will find a number of sights on this topic. After studying the movement I came to the conclusion that this was the number one threat to the “Church”. I then began to write. The article I wrote awhile back has received a number of hits and a lot of discussions with friends and strangers in person and via email. I would never have written on this site if it wasn’t for the Emerging Church. Erwin has spoken out a number of times on his theology. He has written books and has spoken at a number of venues, and at times he has gone off and relied on his own understanding and has strayed from the word, in short his theology is off. Some have disagreed with me and don’t think this issue is the most important one expressed on MOP. But I disagree. God is very clear in not adding to his word. Moreover, Erwin is a public figure and affecting hundreds and even thousands across the country and world. I feel compelled to express my concern. I do agree with you in regards to people seeking Erwin and making things right. However, I also agree with Yvonne and Cris in regards to how that procedure is difficult, but it should be attempted, the word is clear on this matter. Currently I’m actually working on a second piece on the Emerging Church, focusing on how this movement can take a hold of a person and how we as a church need to return to “Orthodoxy”. When I think of MOP and its existence I’m reminded of the Apostle Paul’s words:
Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them. For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple. Romans 16:17-18
Paul never had a problem calling out brothers. He did it with Peter in Galatians and later to brothers who were preaching in God’s name, and some doing amazing things in his names, but were evil. Paul had no problem calling them out. And everyone knew who he was talking about. These words have been passed down through the centuries, no MOP could have such an impact, although, this weighs on my heart daily. I believe it would be a sin to keep quiet. Speak in love, but speak.
Philippians 3:17-21
17Brethren, join in following my example, and observe those who walk according to the pattern you have in us.
18For many walk, of whom I often told you, and now tell you even weeping, that they are enemies of the cross of Christ,
19whose end is destruction, whose god is their appetite, and whose glory is in their shame, who set their minds on earthly things.
20For our citizenship is in heaven, from which also we eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ;
21who will transform the body of our humble state into conformity with the body of His glory, by the exertion of the power that He has even to subject all things to Himself.
With all respect and love.
Jacob A.
Cris said:
"I agree with your point and at times hate the direction of where the blog is taken by certain anonymous posters. The problem that I face is that by not allowing the anonymous posts it basically shuts down any dialog between certain people, specifically current members at Mosaic. That said, I would say your point hits home and I am thinking this through. If anyone else has input on this particular issue please speak up (thanks Yvonne). I have contemplated forcing the issue but have not done so to due to my point. As you know I post with my full name and choose not to post anonymously. The way I see it is that God knows all and we are working in His Kingdom and this life is so short , it’s not as though we are going to remain anonymous, the truth will eventually come out. It also helps me keep my words in check. I write knowing everyone knows it is me writing. I am accountable for my words.
Once again, you make a good point here."
Cris, I appreciate those, including you and Yvonne, that post using their names and I think that adds credibility to what is being said. To me accusations against a pastor should be taken seriously. As such, allowing people to spew hate anonymously goes against the direction of scripture in resolving disputes with those in spiritual authority. Your point about helping you to keep your words in check is exactly what is needed, it helps us to be accountable.
Cris said:
"I disagree. I believe the primary aim hits on the main three areas in which there are real concern. Some on our side of the argument would say the abuse of power is the main point and should be the focus. There are many accounts with (and without) people names attached of pain Erwin has caused. Others have argued that the overwhelming issues in regards to financial matters are the catalyst to bringing change to the other areas and should be the focus. While others felt the entire reason for speaking up was due to the fact that Erwin has turned against Christian teaching and because of this abuse of the word we must speak out.
I am solely responsible for the Primary Aim and I chose the words based on where I felt we were as a group collectively. It happens to be that I saw all three areas as serious issues to be included. I saw first hand how Erwin's poor treatment of others decisions and how that affected their lives, far from how a pastor should treat people. I also was a member of the Believe the Impossible team where we asked people to give sacrificially for a new church building. People not feel deceived. Lastly, as time passes on his preaching is getting more and more biblically unsound."
Thank you for the clarification. I have seen the points of finance and teaching as secondary issues in comparison to the treatment of others. It seems Mosaic has been willing to refund money to anyone who felt they were mislead in the Believe the Impossible campaign. I’m not qualified to judge his teachings but the issues raised here regarding his teaching do not cause me a huge amount of concern.
Cris said:
"If you know something I don't as to him being available to talk in regards to the hurt he has caused please let me know. It is my understanding is he is NOT available publicly or privately.
In the past he has met individuals with the understanding it would be Erwin and that individual. To the surprise of that individual there were 3 - 6 others in the room and that individual felt very ganged up on. I could understand if he doesn't want to meet alone but he also has to understand why we wouldn't want to meet alone especially considering his track record. (Side note, MANY thought they were alone in their hurt and alone in how they were treated and alone in how they were ganged up on until MOP). It is my understanding, most from our side of the argument would meet with him (public or private) but he can't bring 5 people with him while we are only allowed to come alone.
Once again, it is my understanding that Erwin is not available. If this is not the case I know of several who would like to set up a meeting."
This is the area that causes me the greatest concern. I don’t have a good answer as to what someone should do if in fact what you stated is true. It must be frustrating to have been offended by someone you loved and trusted and then not be able to meet with them. I can only offer what I would do if I were in the position and have no guarantee as to the result. If it were me and I had been offended to the extent of others here, I would be persistent in meeting with him. I am not questioning the persistence of others but I have run into Erwin a couple of times unexpectedly over the past few years and have not had any problem having a conversation with him. Even if he will not schedule an appointment, he is a public person and not difficult to find. The key is to continue along Jesus’ instructions in Matthew 18. First, go to the person, if he will not listen, go with 2-3 others, if he still won’t listen, then go before the church. I’m not sure how all this works out in light of what you have shared above.
Cris said:
"Although, ideally it would be great for Erwin to see where he has gone wrong and repent. If that does not occur then the hope is that his elders would see where he and they are going wrong and repent. If that doesn’t happen then the community of Mosaic here in LA should take action and ensure that things change. If that doesn't happen then I believe we need to take it to The Church to warn others of what is happening in this church and what could happen to The Church. I believe this is biblicly sound and there are examples of this in the word."
Cris, I exhort you to proceed with much caution here. If you name a prominent Christian leader today you will undoubtedly find blogs and websites by so called “discernment” ministries that tear them down and relish in finding fault with anything and everything that does not match up with their theology. Many of the great spiritual awakenings in history were met with similar skepticism and criticism. I’m not saying that Mosaic is a spiritual awakening but who knows? God is bigger than our thoughts, he is bigger than Erwin. The last thing I would ever want to do is spend time opposing what God is up to. Please be sure in what you are doing and constantly ask yourself, “Will this please God?” Perhaps it does. I have known you for many years and consider you a dear friend and know you to be one who wants to please God.
In my own life there have been times when I have spoken out harshly against those who I have felt have done wrong and took it as my duty to warn others against their wrong doings. In each of those times God has shown me that my pride is often the issue. I have realized that my brothers in Christ are just that, brothers; and that reconciliation is what God wanted more than anything. It is our by our love that we will be known as His followers. In each instance, I have had to humble myself before any true reconciliation was possible.
I pray that God will guide you as you lead this discussion and that through your efforts true reconciliation will occur.
Bruce Welch
To: brother Bruce,
I have read your comments and advice. You sound like an honorable man.
I believe that Erwin was once an honorable man also. Erwin was once honorable as he came to be the junior Pastor at the Church on Brady. The acts that followed there by Erwin and his cohorts, however, can not be described as honorable.
I believe that Erwin wants to be an honorable man again and that he wants to somehow work his way back to the Way of Jesus Christ despite his many years of neglect of his duties as a pastor and his long neglect of the Gospel.
I agree with you that we should give him that chance, no matter how remote it is that he will ever fight his way back to the Gates of Heaven. It is clear that he travels the wide and easy to find road which closes upon the Gates of where the Evil One will be thrown into at the Final Judgment by God.
We must let God judge Erwin and his cohorts at Mosaic. Erwin merely fulfills Christ's prophecies as a false leader.
"Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many..."
Matthew 24:11.
God will surely judge Erwin and any false elders/leaders at Mosaic. God may tarry in his Second Coming but his return is indeed imminent.
You are correct, Bruce, let God judge Erwin and his cohorts. God is a consuming fire.
"Blessed is that servant whom his master, when he comes, will find so doing.
Assuredly, I say to you that he will him ruler over all his goods.
But if that evil servant says in his heart, 'My master is delaying his coming.'
And he begins to beat his fellow servants, and to eat and drink with the drunkards.
The master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him and at an hour that he is not aware of.
And will punish him and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth."
Matthew 24:45-51
Hey What is your opinion on the Evangelical Manifesto?
Just a thought...
http://www.anevangelicalmanifesto.com/docs/Evangelical_Manifesto.pdf
http://www.anevangelicalmanifesto.com/docs/Evangelical_Manifesto_Summary.pdfThe summary:
So what if Erwin agreed to let you make a flyer that said, "WARNING: Erwin is a false prophet that is going to hell. If you follow this false prophet you will go to hell. Erwin is a liar, thief, prideful, hateful, and destructive. If you follow him, you will become like him." Then pass this out to eveyone who attends Mosaic LA. You could rewrite it, but keep it short and to the point or people want read it. Would this bring closure to the group on this website. At my church we have a little group that pops up every three years or so. My pastor always allow thems to make their flyer and invites them to pass it out as people attend worhship. This has always made the group that is upset with the church feel they have had their say and warned people that they could be lead to hell. These type of things always brings our church closer together and actually grows the community. So I see it as a win for both Mosaic LA and the Mosaic of Pain group.
Dear Anonymous Poster who posted on May 14, 2008 2:46 PM :
I think your post illustrates why people should not be allowed to post without identifying themselves. I’m not sure your words would be as strong had you identified yourself. Posting anonymously takes away some accountability.
Bruce Welch
One of the first reviews of Erwin's new book is out:
http://trevinwax.com/
Looks like another best seller. Mucha papa no carne.
So what if Erwin agreed to let you make a flyer that said, "WARNING: Erwin is a false prophet that is going to hell. If you follow this false prophet you will go to hell. Erwin is a liar, thief, prideful, hateful, and destructive. If you follow him, you will become like him."
Anoter one from Mosaic who hasn't read this site in its entirety. Yeah, Cris I'll feel better if I could walk around Pasadena with a hateful sign. Are these people for real?
Matt 5:24
I see why people would want to post anonymously. This has been evident from both groups, as we all remember Scott and Eric. Maybe there should be a sister site that allows people to post their full name only. No anonymous. This may give people a chance to speak out honestly and no cover of anonymity. But this would probably be more difficult for the Mosaic people, whatcha think?
I don’t know if any of you saw it, but there was a report on 20/20 last night about a website called JuicyCampus.com. It is a website where students can gossip about other students anonymously. All kinds of slander, malice and hatred have been spewed about fellow students without any kind of accountability. An antithesis website has been started by other students called OwnWhatYouThink.com. Their tag phrase is simply:
anonymity = cowardice
Their purpose as found on their website:
“Own What You Think seeks to unite people and bring personal accountability back into the ways in which we communicate and interact with each other.
It is about encouraging individuals to voice their opinions respectfully and constructively while refusing to participate in anonymous and malicious character assassination. It is also about taking a personal stand for something and encouraging others to do the same.
Ultimately, Own What You Think is about collaborating, dissenting, learning and disagreeing in a constructive manner that allows us to grow as individuals and a society as a whole.”
Two questions: Is MosaicOfPain.com drastically different than JuicyCampus.com? Should it be more like OwnWhatYouThink.com?
Bruce Welch
*** Warning ***
Although I am having a hard time surfing JuicyCampus.com site, at minimum some of it's content has very adult language.
This is not to dismiss what you are saying. I am also going to try and reply to your post to my reply.
Bruce wrote:
Thank you for the clarification. I have seen the points of finance and teaching as secondary issues in comparison to the treatment of others. It seems Mosaic has been willing to refund money to anyone who felt they were mislead in the Believe the Impossible campaign. I’m not qualified to judge his teachings but the issues raised here regarding his teaching do not cause me a huge amount of concern.
Regarding refunds for the building campaign. Yes, it is my understanding that there was at least 1 refund given. At some point last year I also heard they stopped all refunds when they realized that it was not one or two people who were concerned but many. I believe Yvonne has quite a bit of info in regards to this. Yvonne, any thoughts? Anyone else have any firsthand experience on this?
Bruce wrote:
This is the area that causes me the greatest concern. I don’t have a good answer as to what someone should do if in fact what you stated is true. It must be frustrating to have been offended by someone you loved and trusted and then not be able to meet with them. I can only offer what I would do if I were in the position and have no guarantee as to the result. If it were me and I had been offended to the extent of others here, I would be persistent in meeting with him. I am not questioning the persistence of others but I have run into Erwin a couple of times unexpectedly over the past few years and have not had any problem having a conversation with him. Even if he will not schedule an appointment, he is a public person and not difficult to find. The key is to continue along Jesus’ instructions in Matthew 18. First, go to the person, if he will not listen, go with 2-3 others, if he still won’t listen, then go before the church. I’m not sure how all this works out in light of what you have shared above.
I along with others have tried. I know there have been those that have tried over and over and others who tried a few times.
Maybe like you Bruce someone has bumped into Erwin and they have made some progress in sharing their concerns with him. Has anyone had this experience?
Bruce wrote:
Cris, I exhort you to proceed with much caution here. If you name a prominent Christian leader today you will undoubtedly find blogs and websites by so called “discernment” ministries that tear them down and relish in finding fault with anything and everything that does not match up with their theology. Many of the great spiritual awakenings in history were met with similar skepticism and criticism. I’m not saying that Mosaic is a spiritual awakening but who knows? God is bigger than our thoughts, he is bigger than Erwin. The last thing I would ever want to do is spend time opposing what God is up to. Please be sure in what you are doing and constantly ask yourself, “Will this please God?” Perhaps it does. I have known you for many years and consider you a dear friend and know you to be one who wants to please God.
In my own life there have been times when I have spoken out harshly against those who I have felt have done wrong and took it as my duty to warn others against their wrong doings. In each of those times God has shown me that my pride is often the issue. I have realized that my brothers in Christ are just that, brothers; and that reconciliation is what God wanted more than anything. It is our by our love that we will be known as His followers. In each instance, I have had to humble myself before any true reconciliation was possible.
I pray that God will guide you as you lead this discussion and that through your efforts true reconciliation will occur.
Thank you for prayers Bruce. I ask that anyone reading this to pray for all concerned. Please pray for me. I feel a great sense of responsibility for my part. I also ask God to give me wisdom in regards to this. I know my part in all of this will be judged. Pray that any and all pride is stripped from me. I can be prideful at times, no doubt. Please pray that God makes it clear to me to continue or to stop. Please pray that I am not an obstacle of reconciliation.
Thanks for your honest words Cris. ...A friend.
Good morning everyone,
In regards to the 20/20 piece on JuicyCampus.com, I actually saw that segment and have been doing my own research into this on-line community. I’d like to start off by saying I find its content to be disgusting and highly inflammatory. This website has been receiving a lot of negative publicity lately along with a rare backlash from college students and administrators.
Bruce wrote:
Two questions: Is MosaicOfPain.com drastically different than JuicyCampus.com? Should it be more like OwnWhatYouThink.com?
Question 1: Is MosaicOfPain.com drastically different than JuicyCampus.com?
I believe Mosaic of Pain is drastically different from JuicyCampus.com in the following ways:
1. FINANCIAL GAIN
JuicyCampus.com is first and foremost a revenue generating website. The people who run “Juicy” are making money by selling advertising space on their site.
Chris does not sell advertising space on Mosaic of Pain.
2. ACCOUNTABILITY
JuicyCampus.com is under intense legal scrutiny right now because it may be violating its own terms of service. In its ToS agreement, it warns posters about what is and isn't “acceptable” content but at the same time it encourages bad behavior by guaranteeing complete anonymity. Here is what MSNBC had to say about this:
Source web address: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23211511/
Backlash targets JuicyCampus.com
Students protest anonymous, salacious posts
updated 11:37 a.m. PT, Sun., Feb. 17, 2008
"Free to use and supported by advertising, JuicyCampus is a simple conduit urging users to post gossip and promising them total anonymity.”
Later in the same article -
“Cloaking IP addresses
In fact, JuicyCampus seems designed to shield its users from the threat of libel claims. The site's privacy page notes that it logs the numeric Internet protocol addresses of its users, but does not associate those addresses with specific posts. That is unlike mainstream social networking sites, which do maintain such detailed logs.
JuicyCampus also goes further by directing posters to free online services that cloak IP addresses. "Just do a quick search on Google and find one you like," JuicyCampus advises.
The site's companion blog reminds users that "our terms and conditions require users to agree not to post anything that is defamatory, libelous, etc." But a few paragraphs later, the blog implies that it will rebuff anything short of a public safety query: "If your school calls upset about some girl being called a slut, we're not handing over access to our server data. If the LAPD calls telling us there is a shooting threat, you better believe we're gonna help them . . . “
I feel the type of “anonymity” JuicyCampus.com promises (and apparently delivers) to its users is appalling and irresponsible.
Here at MoP you will find many, many instances where either Chris, myself or someone else is admonishing EVERYONE to be responsible for their own words by either posting under their real name or by sticking to a single screen name so that there is no confusion about exactly who wrote what. We also encourage EVERYONE to self-police their own words and often correct eachother for inappropriate or inaccurate posts.
Chris, please correct me if I’m wrong in stating this but I don’t believe you do anything to block the IP addresses on individual posts. I know that over at my own website, SolidFoods.com, I have been able to track a few “anonymous” posters using their IP addresses in order to call them to be accountable for their comments. Maybe that’s why I get so little comment traffic at my site.
3. ENTERTAINMENT
JuicyCampus.com became so popular on college campuses because its creator knew he could count on the “entertainment value” of malicious gossip. The following quote is from the above MSNBC article:
"College students are clever and fun-loving, and we wanted to create a place where they could share their stories," said Matt Ivester, the site's founder, who agreed to answer questions by e-mail.
"Like anything that is even remotely controversial, there are always people who demand censorship," he said in response to calls he has rejected — including one from his alma mater, Duke — for him to shut down the site. "However, we believe that JuicyCampus can have a really positive impact on college campuses, as a place for both entertainment and free expression. Frankly, we're surprised that any college administration would be against the free exchange of ideas."
MoP WAS NOT created to be “entertaining!” While there may be some people who find the issues discussed here to be entertaining, I’m absolutely sure that none of the named posters who have shared their painful, personal experiences with Mosaic and Erwin McManus are amused. Chris has REPEATEDLY stated for the record that he is looking forward to the day when the need for this site is over and MoP can be dismantled. I’m sure that many of this site’s supporters feel the same way.
These are the three biggest differences I see between JuicyCampus.com and Mosaic of Pain.com.
Question 2: Should it be more like OwnWhatYouThink.com?
The website that Bruce mentioned in his second question, OwnWhatYouThink.com, is Pepperdine University’s response to JuicyCampus.com.
I would like to remind Bruce that I frequently ask posters to “own your own words.” Since I am not the only one who does this, I believe MoP is already “more like Own What You Think.com.
Bruce, it would not be practical or fair to ban all anonymous posting from this public blog. If Chris were to do so, then both supporters and critics of MoP would accuse him of censorship. Also, people who are too shy, cautious or not quite internet “savvy enough” would lose their opportunity to voice their point of view.
Probably the most important (and in my opinion the most interesting) fact about “anonymous” posts here at MoP is the large number of them that have been sent in by supporters of Mosaic and Erwin McManus! Not too long ago, a companion website was created to discuss the issues raised here at MoP. At this site, posters were required to use their real names.
Again, please correct me if I'm wrong but if I'm remembering it correctly that website was taken down due to a lack of participation because the only people who were willing to reveal their true names were all supporters of MoP!
Bruce, I believe we all need to be careful about what we write on-line and take full responsibility for our own words.
Yvonne W.
To: Bruce Welch
I am responding to your message posted 5/14/08 at 8:19 pm. I assume that you truly are the Bruce Welch from the Church on Brady and not one of Erwin moles.
You said:
"I think your post illustrates why people should not be allowed to post without identifying themselves. I’m not sure your words would be as strong had you identified yourself. Posting anonymously takes away some accountability."
First of all, Erwin and the elders at Mosaic have not been acting anonymously over the past 10 years but they still lack all financial Accountability in how they spend and sell the assets of Mosaic and the former assets of the Church on Brady. They are not accountable to their Mosaic members and to people who donate to Mosaic each Sunday. There are no financial reports to the members of the church or to those who donate money to the church. There are no meetings , not even an annual meeting where members can ask questions about finances, payrool, sales of assets, tax questions, etc. There is not even a general financial report to the members with just a general line item budget for the church and church staff salaries etc. There is a complete lack of financial accountability at Mosaic.
As to anonymous statements and the status of "truth". Please remember that the Internal Revenue Service takes thousands of anonymous reports of tax fraud and tax evasion from thousands of people each year as to individual returns, corporate returns, church tax returns, and the IRS is happy to pay substantial financial rewards
to these anonymous reporters and keep their status "anonymous" in order to get at the truth....that is tax fraud, tax evasion by churches, individuals and businesses all over the USA.
There are no financial reports to the members of the church or to those who donate money to the church. There are no meetings , not even an annual meeting where members can ask questions about finances, payrool, sales of assets, tax questions, etc. There is not even a general financial report to the members with just a general line item budget for the church and church staff salaries etc. There is a complete lack of financial accountability at Mosaic.
Yvonne,
The above quote is very disturbing. Is this accurate. No meetings? Was this ok with your father and the rest of the elders? This doesn't settle well with me. Not at all.
Anonymous wrote:
First of all, Erwin and the elders at Mosaic have not been acting anonymously over the past 10 years but they still lack all financial Accountability in how they spend and sell the assets of Mosaic and the former assets of the Church on Brady. They are not accountable to their Mosaic members and to people who donate to Mosaic each Sunday. There are no financial reports to the members of the church or to those who donate money to the church. There are no meetings , not even an annual meeting where members can ask questions about finances, payrool, sales of assets, tax questions, etc. There is not even a general financial report to the members with just a general line item budget for the church and church staff salaries etc. There is a complete lack of financial accountability at Mosaic.
I'm hoping that my corrections to the quote above will be seen as a good example of how MoP is different from "gossip" websites.
LEADERSHIP
It is my understanding that Erwin McManus and the board of elders hold regular meetings to discuss and vote on financial issues. It would be silly to assume that all such votes are unanimous. If anyone would like to know more about what happens during these elder meetings, contact the elders themselves and find out.
The current Elders at Mosaic are:
Rick Yamamoto
Enrique Vazquez
Eric Bryant
Greg Soohoo
Erwin McManus
BUSINESS MEETINGS
The Church on Brady used to hold annual business meetings that were open to the entire congregation. All members were allowed to vote on financial and other issues that were brought up during these meetings.
A few years ago, the congregation of Mosaic held a vote to abolish the annual business meeting. Along with ending the meetings, the congregation was also agreeing to eliminate the church-wide vote. In essence, the members of Mosaic voluntarily voted to disenfranchise themselves!
Personally, I'm not sure if the congregation fully understood all the implications of this decision or exactly what it was they were giving up. The sad reality is that they abdicated personal responsibility and involvement in the governance of their own church body.
FINANCIAL REPORTS
It is my understanding that Mosaic does prepare some sort of general financial report which it makes available to its members. I've been told by insiders at Mosaic that it is not a line by line report.
When I first began to write my Solid Foods series of articles on Mosaic there was no mention of such a report on the official Mosaic website. Now, there is a small disclaimer at:
http://mosaic.org/contact
For volunteer staff wanting financial updates or updates from elders meetings or lead team meetings, contact Eric Bryant at eric@mosaic.org or call 626-628-9641 ext.9633
This disclaimer appeared very soon after I began to publish my articles and it used to be printed on the Mosaic newsletter but has since been removed.
DONORS
By law, Mosaic must provide donors with a written statment for tax purposes. I have no reason to believe they are not doing so.
ITEMIZED BUDGET
This is the area that causes me concern.
As far as I know, Mosaic is willing to show its members a general financial report but not an itemized report.
Mosaic did send out a flyer entitled:
"Mosaic: a LOOK BACK on 2007 and a LOOK AHEAD to 2008"
http://solidfoods.blogspot.com/2008/02/awaken-humanitys-slice-of-mosaic-pie.html
The financial information contained in this flyer is sketchy and somewhat confusing.
If Mosaic really wants to dispel all doubts about its finances it should publish an ITEMIZED report that is available to the general public as well as to its members. (And this report should be accessible WITHOUT having to speak to leadership first!)
Yvonne W.
Yvonne,
Can you clarify something, When did the church abolish business meetings and the church-wide vote? This seems absurd, can this be reversed. This appears to give a lot of power to a few individuals. I know these gentlemen, and they are good men, but you can't escape the "absolute power corrupts absolutely" reality. Correct me if I'm wrong.
A MOP and Mosaic Member
To a MOP and Mosaic Member:
The vote to amend the church constitution was taken on May 8, 2002.
Since this was 6 years ago, I believe the total membership of Mosaic was somewhere around a 1,000, give or take a few hundred. The really disturbing fact is that less than 200 people actually showed up that night to cast their votes for this important change. That's less than half the congregation and far short of a majority vote.
You asked me if it was possible to reverse this decision. Well, if you really are a current member of Mosaic, then I URGE you to ask your leadership for an explanation. Ask them if this vote was ever legally finalized with the State of California. It is my understanding that in order to do so, the leadership of Mosaic would have been required to publish a public notice of intent to change the church constitution. (This is the type of notice typically seen in newspaper classifieds.)
The reason for a public notice is to inform ALL members, both PAST and PRESENT.
If you are seriously thinking about finding a way to reverse this decision, first find out if Mosaic took this step with its corporate paperwork. If Mosaic did not do this, then you can start a petition drive to challenge the "amendment" to the constition since, legally, the church would still be operating under its old constitution.
Yvonne W.
P.S. I do not personally remember seeing any such public announcement.
Don't worry Yvonne their going to hear about it
To: the poster on May 20, 2008 you say:
"This appears to give a lot of power to a few individuals. I know these gentlemen, and they are good men, but you can't escape the "absolute power corrupts absolutely" reality. Correct me if I'm wrong."
A MOP and Mosaic Member
Your comment that these are all "good men" appears somewhat naive, brother.
"Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely".
As demonstrated throughout the Bible, in both the Old Testament and the New Testament, men and women are entrusted with the assets, riches, talents, strength, time and power from God. God owns and distributes all these things but men and women forget this and they begin to believe that these gifts, etc. are theirs alone and not God's.
Erwin repeatedly talks in his Sunday sermons about his "10 years serving with the urban poor" but gives no details of such service, no stories about this alleged service and does not state where, when and with whom such service was done. One can only surmise that these alleged "10 years with the urban poor" are either hallucinations of Erwin or resume fabrications ??
As for the other "good men" you list in your comments. I am informed by good sources that Greg SooHoo was once the head of the college department at a local very large and well respected Southern Baptist Church called "First Chinese Baptist Church" in downtown Los Angeles. Greg SooHoo abruptly left (or was abruptly removed) this college department position for unknown reasons and later ended up at Mosaic. Information is also surfacing on these other "good men" whom much is entrusted to without public meetings or third party supervision or any type of financial transparency from church members.
"...Information is also surfacing on these other "good men" whom much is entrusted to without public meetings or third party supervision or any type of financial transparency from church members."
Annonymous I think you better be very careful with your assertions. These are elders and men of God. Be very careful. A MOP MEMBER
To "anonymous" of May 21:
Actually, I have found a few published items about Erwin's "10 years among the urban poor." I wish there was a lot more information but you can't say these years were just a "hallucination" or "fabrication" on the part of Erwin McManus.
As to Greg Soohoo:
I you want me to take your accusations seriously, please repost using your real name.
Yvonne W.
Anonymous,
It sounds like you still attend Mosaic. Have you contacted your direct leaders? Have you shared your concerns, or are you just maligning your brothers in Christ? It’s easy to share your snipes here, but can you say it to these brothers in person, to their face?
To: Anonymous and Yvonne W.,
Your comments of May 21, 2008, are well taken. Yvonne's father is an honorable man and a man of faith.
However, I must warn you that the other leaders, elders, and managers are Mosaic are always subject to falling away and apostasy.
"This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful,unholy.
Without natural affection, trucebreakers.......having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away."
2nd Timothy 3:1-5
"Preach the word: be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long-suffering and doctrine.
For a time will come when they will NOT endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves TEACHERS, HAVING ITCHING EARS;
AND THEY SHALL TURN AWAY THEIR EARS FROM THE TRUTH, and shall be turned onto FABLES."
It is ironic that as we speak here, at Mosaic LA, Erwin gives a four week sermon series on "soul environments" using the symbolic elements of alchemy, the stuff of witchcraft and fables from the Middle AGes (aka 14th century): fire, wood, water, wind, earth.
He turns the young Mosaic crowd onto FABLES and away from the Word of God. If Erwin wanted to use real elements mentioned in the Bible, then he should use the blood of Christ, the water of Baptism, and the Spirit (the Holy Spirit) not elements of fables, witchcraft and Alchemy from 700 years ago.
Anonymous,
I understand your concern with Erwin's preaching, but we all need to be careful with how we use our words.
I too am not comfortable with Erwin McManus' use of "elements" as metahpors for christian "values."
Here is a link to a very interesting article I read about Mosaic and this very topic.
http://web.archive.org/web/20060207045728/http://www.crmspokane.org/cgm4.htm
Mosaic Church: Building On The Principles of Nature and Evolution
Church Growth Movement Part 4: Mosaic's Eastern Religion Influences
By Greg DesVoignes
I think I posted this before but it's worth repeating.
Yvonne W.
Below is part of the conclusion written by Greg DesVoignes. I ask -What makes Christians so willing to accept these doctrines? What are we bringing into the church and not knowing? Is this being done on purpose and why are not more speaking up like; ex. Chuck Colson, John MaCarthur and John Piper to name a few? I think the truth may be seen in that pastors like Bell, Mclaren, Jones and McManus speak 90% truth. And that's an "A" in my book. Now its easy to dismiss that 10%. Its uncomfortable to address it. They do so much good. But can you live with that? Is that Ok with God?
I confess I'm a calvinist. But there should be no shame in that. God's word is beautiful and his bride should be treated with more respect. -JA
What I see in Mosaic, is the real problem that confronts the Church today. That problem is the combining of God?s plan with those ways outside his word; those things from other religions. While Erwin McManus writes that to not go forward is to disobey God, it is the interjection of those things of the world into the building of God?s church that disobeys God.
The other problem with this interjection of aspects of the world is that he introduces his own people to the doctrines of these other ideals and opens the possibility of persons accepting them as valid and incorporating the aspect of other religions into their thinking; not even knowing it.
While reading McManus? material it is easy to say "yes" on many points. And this is one of the ways that make these exceptionally blatant falsehoods from the East acceptable. But it is this means by which he wants to get to the "making disciples for Christ" that he can end up making disciples of these Eastern philosophies.
These are the disturbing trends I spoke of at the beginning of the article; Even less covert deception in the doctrines that are being brought into the church, and the readiness to accept that which is so blatantly false.
The post by Anonymous on May 23, 2008, is very true. Many false religions mix aspects of Christian doctrine/beliefs with false ideas and false doctrine (e.g. Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormonism, the Prosperity Gospel, New Age philosophies from the East, etc.).
That is one clear and glaring problem with MOSAIC and the leadership of Erwin. Erwin is willing to throw anything into his stew that he offers to the young Mosaic crowd if it makes it tasty to them and makes him popular. However, Erwin does not care if that item thrown into the stew is Biblical or not ; or whether it is of God or not of God. His main concern is the stew tasty or not to his audience.
The main problem with Erwin is that he lacks integrity. He mentions in an article that he wrote for Christianity Today magazine in the year 2000 that "Humility" is the key to "Integrity".
http://www.christianitytoday.com/biblestudies/areas/biblestudies/articles/040916.html
Erwin says in that article:
"In ministry, the greatest enemies of integrity are usually selfish ambition and pride. It is not enough to be gifted to lead—you must have the moral compass to take people in the right direction.
The difficulty with integrity is that up front it can be so easily misdiagnosed. It can be confused with talent, savvy, attractiveness, or knowledge. We are well skilled at pretension and deception. We work harder at making the outside look good while leaving the inside untouched. All too often we do not discover the true nature of a person until after we have placed them in a position of power and influence.
We don't have attitude problems; we have pride problems. Humility is the only cure. It is the also the most significant qualifier for spiritual leadership."
Clearly, 8 years later in the year 2008, "Humility" is clearly something that Erwin lacks. He has plenty of "Hubris" and "pride" which have plainly destroyed his Integrity as a Pastor.
He is willing to pander to the crowd like a politician , in his preaching and in his doctrine.
He is not willing to submit himself and the Mosaic leadership to Financial Transparency so the public and members of Mosaic can see what is really going on with the financial budget and the sale/investment of the assets of Mosaic and the Church on Brady.
Once you lose your integrity, you can no longer discern the difference between Lies and Truth.
You end up like the Roman Governor Pilate, asking Jesus "what is truth" because you become spiritually lost, lost without God as your compass and your light in the darkness of this world.
Cris, Yvonne, Jacob and MOP in general,
I decided to respond to this after reading some of the latest things written. I think you all know who I am, at least Cris and Jacob do. I was in Jacob & Kimberly's life group, went to Jacob's bachelor party and wedding, lived with his brother-in-law.
First I would like to thank Bruce for his comments. Clearly written, Biblical and sound advice.
Second, I would like to say that there are things said on this blog that are very ungodly. Yvonne, your defense that some people might see blocking anonymous posting as censorship is weak. I think anyone who won't use their name should not post, be they for Mosaic or for MOP.
Third, there are things stated here that aren't true or accurate. I have read the entire blog. I was involved in certain situations that I know of and saw first hand what was said and done. I thnk ecclesiastically speaking, you are on weak footing to think that as outsiders, you have a place to come in and ask for the resignation of the elders and pastors of a church. Such a move, in baptistic theology and understanding of scripture (and Mosaic is a Baptist church) comes only from the current members of the church. Each local church is autonomous and accountable to God, not to "outside authorities".
Regarding the annual meeting, one thing many are conveniently forgetting about Brady meetings is that they were only a yes or no vote. There was no discussion. A report was prepared before hand, including general budget items (not detailed line items) that was distributed a month beforehand. Anyone with questions was encouraged to approach first the ministry area leader and then the staff person and then an elder if there were questions. There was no discussion. How long that system was in place before 1992 I don't know, but from at least that time forward it was there.
I love and respect Robert, as I do all the elders (I realize he is no longer an elder). However, I find it interesting that he has become a symbol for all that is good and all the rest of the elders of all that is bad. I talked with Robert at length about many of the decisions you dislike, particularly the decision to ask Brother Thom to leave. He was the one that told me that it was the elders, not Erwin, that felt it was necessary.
I disagree with the statement that Erwin has failed to grow, teach or disciple people who have come to faith at Mosaic the last 10 years. I have grown under his teaching, as have many I know. I have known Erwin longer than any of you, I am pretty sure. I have seen his passion to see people come to know Christ, his love for them and desire to see them grow. Is he perfect? No way. However, he is not the church. Mosaic is made up of many members. We each have a role to play, gifts to use, ministries to fulfill.
I have found that all the elders and staff have been more than willing to answer my questions and concerns when raised. As things have been asked on this blog, I have dialogued with them about them. They aren't the paranoid people you want to paint them as. They are simply too busy obeying what God has told them to do to constantly worry about this site.
I think one of the saddest things that I see in this is the amount of time, talent and energy spent on this blog instead of on activities that build the kingdom. I live somewhere where friends of mine are personnally going to trial this week for their faith. The are facing years in prison, lose of all property and physical danger to see the church established. They are crying out to God to see his church established here. Mosaic has helped us to be here and play a small role in that. Keep in perspective what you are facing. You have much to give to the kingdom, don't waste it. There is a lost world out there.
I would also say to the anonymous poster who questioned Erwin's service to the poor, accusing him of hallucinations or "resume padding", it was real service. I was there for part of it. I saw the sacrifices he made on behalf of people, the love he gave, the time. I watched him help people come into the kingdom and grow. He is still doing that. So, please be careful of what you say.
So many accuse him and Mosaic of spreading pain. Realize that many of you, thru comments and acceptance of inaccurate info have done the same. We are all fallen creatures. So walk carefully, examine your motives and hearts.
I will not be responding to this blog anymore. I have other things I need to be about. I will be happy to respond to anyone who would like to email me. My address is matt725@yahoo.com
Grace to you all.
Hey, I think I may have written the wrong email. Please note it is mattb725@yahoo.com
Matt,
Old friend. I understand your concerns and everyone who knows you knows the type of man you are. I'm writing to you for two reasons. One, I know you’ll read it and two you addressed me so I'll respond. Below I have written my comments based on your points.
First, you’re absolutely correct. Bruce is a Godly man and he and Clara are people I seek advice and counsel. And this blog is no exception regarding receiving their input; it's been a topic we’ve discussed.
Second, I also agree with you regarding things that have been said that have been ungodly. Both sides have been guilty. I haven’t come to terms yet of shutting down this site (I personally don’t have a say, but may have some influence), because of a few who have not spoken in love. If this site goes down, and I hope eventually there will be no need. Another site would pop up to address the words spoken and written by Erwin McManus. I’ve already shared in the past why this is necessary and why I post. The other point regarding Yvonne, well I’ll let Yvonne respond to that point.
Third, I don’t think it’s fair to say that items shared here are not true or accurate. This basically devalues brothers and sisters who’ve posted here. I think we know you were involved with Mosaic long ago. And your friendship with Erwin is not disputed or disregarded. However, I would not cast aside those people who have written here over the last year as not “true or accurate.” I believe you would have to address the points brought up by these people, point by point, and then share why they are untrue and inaccurate. I think your information in this area would be valued and important to the brethren. I hope I can encourage you to address these concerns since you’ve been given the insight that they are untrue and inaccurate. Also, I personally am not asking for Erwin’s resignation and the elders. I believe Cris addressed this point a few post ago. I would like to state again that I was never hurt by Erwin, and if I was I would approach him. And I also agree with your term as outsiders when referring to the MOPers. I think that many of the people who have posted here have been treated as outsiders.
Fourth, I was a little confused with your response with the annual meeting. I think your point was that the information given regarding the budget during the Brady years was limited with no discussion. I remember going to those meetings and I was part of the church before you attended and I remembered different. There were some meetings that got a little heated, but everyone seemed to get a chance to voice their concerns. Now you and I don’t really know how budget questions have been addressed over the last 8 to 10 years, I guess Robert would be a good person to ask. You may want to talk to people who went to the church before you or Erwin. You might get a different take on the business meetings and what took place there. As you know they no longer have them. Your writing leads me to believe that today’s Mosaic with limited to no information and no vote by its members on financial matters is better than the Brady years. I don’t see the logic in that, but maybe you can clarify yourself. In this area I don’t think less is better. I don’t think anyone here has said that Brady was perfect or did everything right. I would say that it wasn’t perfect, but a lot of good things took place there. And its leaders have gone on to be missionaries and/or become leaders in others churches. This speaks of its influence. I don't believe Mosaic has had close to that type of influence, but you can correct me if I'm wrong. I would say that one area that Brady struggled in was its pride. And that legacy has been amplified over the years. I shared this concern with Erwin years ago and it appears that pride is still an issue. I know I deal with it. You also shared that Mosaic leadership has responded to your questions. I think it would be great that you share some of those questions raised here and some of those answers given to you by leadership, because others have not had the same success as you. Just recently I talked to a sister who left Mosaic because her questions were answered by the familiar "if you don't like it then maybe you should leave". (I won’t share her name here, but I’ll email it to you) The truth is Matt neither you nor I attend Mosaic any longer. And I could see why they would talk to one of their own missionaries and not one of those Erwin has hurt. Why hasn't this love spread to people like Eddie M. I believe he was a missionary as well. I also find it interesting that you addressed me but didn't address my concerns with the church. And that would be in Erwin's theology. I will go ahead and email you this post to give you an opportunity to respond to this topic of theology.
Fifth, I really can’t respond to your remarks regarding Robert. I don’t know if you have some history, but if you do I encourage you to contact him and ask him any questions that you may have. I personally have never held him on a pedestal. And I really don't know anyone who has, but he is a brother. I have not always agreed with him, but I know I could approach him and he’ll be straight with me. I also believe you probably should ask Robert again if Erwin had anything to do with the Brother Tom departure. This has received a lot of different interpretations and now urban legend status over the years. And it appears that this legend has come about regarding Erwin not really having anything to do with his departure. I guess it depends on who you talk to. But do you really believe Erwin had nothing to do with Bro. Tom’s departure? I talked to Erwin about his departure and my brothers and I asked Bro. Tom about this, have you?
Sixth, I am encouraged that you’ve grown in Christ and Erwin has had an impact with your walk. I know that you and those who came to Brady/Mosaic from Texas have a special relationship with him. Kim and I had a wonderful relationship with Erwin, but I honestly can say I didn’t have the same "spiritual" experience as you. Some who have posted here have written on Erwin having an unbalanced approach to leading. Evangelism and discipleship don’t have an equal status. I have seen video of him recently that states where he stands with evangelism and discipleship. He continues to hold evangelism above discipleship. I can only speak for myself. Erwin didn’t do it for me. Looking back I think that his evangelistic style is great for the young believer, but for me I need a little more bible and less spectacle. But again I’m speaking for myself and not for others who write here. My growth did not come from the Erwin years. However, his theology has caused me to learn more about the current status of the "church."
Seventh, I think it would be great if the elders would join us at a sight to be determined later and answer the many questions brought here. You have not found any difficulty asking questions to leadership and getting answers, maybe you could be our facilitator. I don’t think anyone would have a problem with this point. I know their busy obeying God’s word, but they probably should look at Matt 5:24 on this one. And you could help by being our broker. I don’t think the leaders are paranoid. I just don’t understand their unwillingness to make things right with those they’ve hurt.
Eight, I agree there is a lot of talent here. The MOP writers are amazing and maybe the next step is to write a book on how not to do church. Maybe the proceeds could go to all those who lost money on the BTI church campaign. Yes there are people who are being persecuted around the world. You know this more than anyone I know. However, I think we better clean up our house before we go out to the battlefield in the 3rd world. And I mean not just Mosaic but the “church” in general.
Ninth, I think the anonymous posters who shoot and run have to be careful with their words. Again I’m in agreement. Posters from both sides need to be careful in what they say. This may mean that Cris will have to censor more. He has been accused of being a little overzealous in the past. I don’t think those were fair accusations, but understandably I’m bias. I also agree when you share that our words can cause pain. Many have seen this while attending Mosaic, we don’t need to bring that here and again we need to be careful with our words.
Finally, I want to thank you for posting Matt. I love you and I know your heart is in the right place. I don’t agree with most of what you posted, but I know your intentions are good. And your reputation speaks for itself. I do encourage you to talk to those who have posted here. They didn’t have your experience, but they had an experience. I would honestly like to hear your input on the emerging church. I take your comments and words with great weight. I do want to remind the readers of this site that Erwin is a public figure. And his words will be examined and they will be looked at side by side with scripture. This will continue to the day he stops being a public figure. In my opinion the Emerging Church is a detriment to the “Church.” God has not shown me different, but I’m listening. Jacob
kimja67@yahoo.com
Matt,
You wrote:
Regarding the annual meeting, one thing many are conveniently forgetting about Brady meetings is that they were only a yes or no vote. There was no discussion. A report was prepared before hand, including general budget items (not detailed line items) that were distributed a month beforehand. Anyone with questions was encouraged to approach first the ministry area leader and then the staff person and then an elder if there were questions. There was no discussion. How long that system was in place before 1992 I don't know, but from at least that time forward it was there.
Although the budget meetings were often without questions, there were times someone had questions and asked these questions publicly. These questions were asked and they were answered. If they needed more time to answer the question the vote was put off for a time to get the answers. It seemed most productive use of time was to ask questions prior to the meeting and during the month of having the budget in hand but this was not always adhered to especially when large projects were being planned (i.e. building projects).
Although there were no line item budgets there were categorical budgets listed for each ministry and the funds for those ministries. Each ministry leader was accountable to the finance committee but had room to make decisions on how they spent their portion of their budget. Each ministry in turn was asked to prepare a ministry update which would be added as part of the budget report which was in narrative form.
Although most that had questions did ask their ministry leaders and then to an elder if needed, there was plenty of time for this discussion prior to the meeting but their was also time during the meeting. As a matter of practicality considering the size of the church, the budget was handed out ahead of time so that there was discussion. What you have written would lead the reader to believe that discussion was discouraged when in fact the opposite was true. The budget was given out ahead of time so all could be examined and all members could be heard. Also remember back in the Brady days the Finance Committee was charged with the budget (accountable for budget). For disclosure purposes my father was on the finance committee for years. This was a group of members that included lay people and church staff.
Although this committee was a “behind the scenes” type of ministry, at times they were sought publicly and privately for questions and answers. This was especially true during times of major projects. This committee was held accountable and kept others accountable.
Third, there are things stated here that aren't true or accurate. I have read the entire blog. I was involved in certain situations that I know of and saw first hand what was said and done. I thnk ecclesiastically speaking, you are on weak footing to think that as outsiders, you have a place to come in and ask for the resignation of the elders and pastors of a church. Such a move, in baptistic theology and understanding of scripture (and Mosaic is a Baptist church) comes only from the current members of the church. Each local church is autonomous and accountable to God, not to "outside authorities".
If we are wrong or inaccurate then please bring them forward. We are open. We are willing to listen. I can imagine it is hard to come forward but please do. Why keep truth to yourself?
Concerning issues of the church I believe you are wrong. We have every right to ask. We may be dismissed or it may not be considered but we can ask. I do believe you are right in saying that current members of a Southern Baptist Church are the ones that would have to make any real changes but we as outsiders can make our requests known. That said, I will remove the resignation portion of the aim if we could start moving in the direction of repentance. People asked what the purpose was and I gave it. It may be overreaching but it gives clarity. Would you rather still be asking why we are doing this and what we hope to achieve? I grew tired of that and wanted to move forward. If you don’t like the resignation portion why not focus on the repentance. How can anyone go wrong with wanting that?
I love and respect Robert, as I do all the elders (I realize he is no longer an elder). However, I find it interesting that he has become a symbol for all that is good and all the rest of the elders of all that is bad. I talked with Robert at length about many of the decisions you dislike, particularly the decision to ask Brother Thom to leave. He was the one that told me that it was the elders, not Erwin, that felt it was necessary.
Who has made him a symbol for all that is good and the rest bad? That is a major stretch as to what has been written. I can say that I have spoken to Robert. I can say that I have heard his story. I can say that he and I have spoken specifically about his part. I can say I believe he is working through those issues because he has stated so. I can say he seems humbled by his experiences. I can say I believe he was a major part of the wrong that happened at Mosaic, a major part of the pain. I told that to his face. I was able to do that because he was open to meet with me. He met with me. He listened to me. He asked me if we could have a running dialogue as to what has happened specifically concerning things that he and I were apart of. I of course agreed. I have no idea what the future holds as far as if he and I will agree on all that has happened but guess what? We are working on it. I can tell you that he has made effort to reach out and not hide from people. I can tell you that when a man is open and willing to listen to the hurts than a lot can be accomplished. I saw Robert not too long ago at a funeral. I didn’t think of the hurts but rather was grateful that he took the time to reach out to a hurting family. Robert may not have a title any longer of elder or pastor but he still continues to be a brother and a comforter. The main reason I don’t write about Robert is because I can call Robert and talk with him. As far as I know if others have been hurt by him they have called him and he has heard them. Robert has been open.
Also if you think this is all about Bro. Thom then you are greatly mistaken. I can only speak for myself but I spoke to Bro. Thom when that all went down. The stories were very different. I continued to serve and be apart of Mosaic. I did not leave. I served and took part in all that I could to build and move forward. When I did leave it was because I saw the pain first hand. I don’t mean I got my feelings hurt. I don’t mean I didn’t disagree with a decision. I don’t mean I wanted a certain building and we didn’t get it. I don’t mean I took other peoples hurts and made them my own. I made a choice to move forward UNTIL I saw a pattern and it affected me first hand. That is sad because it took my pain to realize and believe there was a problem. I am ashamed of this. Erwin told me in a meeting, to my face, he would NEVER do this and that because he loved me and my family. Well, 3 days later this and that happened. When I question it I got no response. Three months later when I calmed down I wrote a letter so I could make my point clear, I got no response from him. Once I saw there was an issue, a pattern and he (they) refused to discuss it then I moved on. Bro. Thom unfortunately was just one of many hurts that Erwin has caused. I didn’t speak out until there were questions of his theology and continued stories of his abuse. I waited approximately 9 years before I spoke out. In those 9 years as I heard other stories I encouraged people to seek Erwin out. Give him an opportunity. Those that reached out only got more pain. I stopped suggesting that and started listening and mourning with them. I did move on but also chose to help bring clarity for those that have been hurt and those that will be hurt.
Do you not see any pattern? Do you need to be hurt in order for you to realize there is pain? There are staff members, elders, ministry leaders, pastors, regular members who have been hurt. Does that not matter?
So many accuse him and Mosaic of spreading pain. Realize that many of you, thru comments and acceptance of inaccurate info have done the same. We are all fallen creatures. So walk carefully, examine your motives and hearts.
Yes we are fallen. No doubt. I do examine my motives and heart. As I am not perfect I don’t expect Erwin or anyone else to be. Is your statement suppose to encourage me to stop because I also am not perfect?
Matt wrote:
"...before 1992 I don't know, but from at least that time forward it was there."
1992 was the beginning of the end of The Church on Brady.
Additionally, Matt came over from Texas with the rest of the Erwin'ites.
Case closed.
MOPmember
To Matt B,
You wrote:
Yvonne, your defense that some people might see blocking anonymous posting as censorship is weak. I think anyone who won't use their name should not post, be they for Mosaic or for MOP.
Matt, this issue has been discussed in these comment pages so many times over that I've grown weary of repeating myself. If you believe my arguments are "weak", so be it. You are entitled to your opinion.
You also wrote:
Third, there are things stated here that aren't true or accurate.
Matt,if you have inside information (fact, NOT opinion)that contradicts any of the points that have been made here or answers to the questions I have specifically raised in my own writings, then PLEASE share that information with the rest of us!
Moving on, you wrote:
I thnk ecclesiastically speaking, you are on weak footing to think that as outsiders, you have a place to come in and ask for the resignation of the elders and pastors of a church. Such a move, in baptistic theology and understanding of scripture (and Mosaic is a Baptist church) comes only from the current members of the church. Each local church is autonomous and accountable to God, not to "outside authorities".
Matt, if you have indeed read all of the posts written here at MoP, then you already know that I have never asked for the resignation of anyone.
Matt, I find it odd that you would rush to defend Mosaic's "autonomy" by first emphasizing that it is a Southern Baptist Church. If Mosaic wants to be truly "autonomous" and not accountable to "outside authorities," then why continue the association?
You wrote:
Regarding the annual meeting, one thing many are conveniently forgetting about Brady meetings is that they were only a yes or no vote.
Even IF this were true, a "yes" or "no" vote is preferable to none at all.
Moving on . . .
I love and respect Robert, as I do all the elders (I realize he is no longer an elder). However, I find it interesting that he has become a symbol for all that is good and all the rest of the elders of all that is bad.
Where has my father been held up as a "symbol for all that is good and all the rest of the elders of all that is bad?"
Matt, even I don't put my father on a pedestal.
I have to say that this particular point looks be nothing more than another attempt to deflect attention from the main issues.
Yvonne W.
Wow let me get this straight. You have a guy who hasn't been an active member in close to a decade and leaves his monologue and expects everyone to believe it, because he said it. And then says well I'm not writing here again. He just took his ball and went home. He did stick up for his friend. When was the last time someone spoke up for EM and left their name?
To Matthew 5:24, who posted on May 26, 2008,
I write in defense of Erwin here. I do not leave my name for fear of being ridiculed and attacked.
I say to you that I know Erwin to be an "honorable man". He says he did 10 years of service with the urban poor before he came to the Church on Brady in East L.A. I believe him to be an "honorable man" for such long 10 years of service.
He says he resurrected and saved the Church on Brady from extinction and irrelevance and transformed it into a successful relevant church called MOSAIC LOS ANGELES. I believe him to be an honorable man for these great acts of transformation.
He says that he saved the church in Chino Hills called "Inland Community Church" from financial woes and extinction and irrelevance by taking money to pay off that church's $650,000 mortgage....using money for that act from money raised from the members of the Church on Brady in East L.A. and money raised from MOSAIC members when Mosaic was in East L.A. and money from the sale of the church property located in East L.A. at the Church on Brady. For this act, I believe him to be an honorable man.
Erwin says that this act of paying the $650K mortgage of Inland Community Church was fairly negotiated with that church's members & leaders, and it was agreed that MOSAIC could takeover Inland Community Church and turn its name into MOSAIC INLAND, despite the objections of hundreds of members of Inland Community Church to this hostile takeover and their many objections to the apostate theology and apostate beliefs taught by MOSAIC. For this act, I believe Erwin to be an honorable man.
I dare any man to come forth and say to my face, that Erwin is not an honorable man. Sometimes bloody deeds must be done to accomplish a higher goal. Sometimes the means justifies the ends I say. Who can not say that Erwin is not an honorable man....
Annonymous,
Your passionate. I don't think anyone in leadership at Mosaic would ridicule you if you state your name. They seem to be a nice bunch, no retribution. I hope you've shared your concerns with leadership. And if you have, what was their response?
Wait a minute, I am confused here. Matt B, have you had a conversation with Robert Martinez on how he was fired and how it was to be communicated that he retired? 2. Talked to Gerardo Marti about how he was fired? (And no, it wasn’t to “pursue his passion and dreams” 3. Talked to all the elders about how they were asked for their resignations? 4. Talked to Alex McManus about how he was fired (and no, it wasn’t because he wanted to “pursue his dreams” somewhere else.) 5. Talked to Robbie Sortino about how he was handled after his personal crisis 6. Talked to Eddie Marshall about how his personal information which should have been in pastor/member confidence was being gossiped about with other missionaries by Erwin? 7. Talked to Anton Mendoza lately? 8. Talked to Dave Files lately? 9. Talked to Gary Wilson lately? 10. Talk to Steve Walker lately?
Other's that may have a few words: George Valdez, Holly Hair, Linda Wolf, Frank Loaiza, David Torres, Carol Davis, Alan McKenzie, Ron Foster, Thom Wolf.
If you've listened carefully to Erwin over the years you will hear him speak of his admiration for CEO's and those who've come up from their boot straps. Didn't Erwin just get rid of people that were in his way? People who came between him and his vision. Is that unbiblical?
man.i have to say it saddens me to see what has become of all of this. brothers and sister in Christ up in arms against each other. this has really been a mockery of the church and of the Christian faith. i am sure that a few of you might come at me demanding an apology for what i am about to say.
i will not make an attack upon any person who has been mentioned in the postings before this. it's just amazing to see that a person is a hero, as long as you believe in what they are doing. but, once you don't believe, they are a snake of the devil. then you have people who are heroes regardless of what they have been a part of. it's funny how Robert M. is a hero to some, but not liked by others. in the same way, Erwin is an honorable man to some, and of the devil to others.
i guess that's why you guys are fighting so much huh? good vs evil, God vs satan? MOP vs Mosaic? try to understand who you are fighting and why you are fighting them, and see why they are fighting you. we are ALL RIGHT in our own minds, but never seek to understand those we are fighting. this is the downfall of Christianity today, and seems to be playing itself out right here, evident by all the crazy postings that i have been reading.
THEN, you have people keeping their name hidden claiming to be afraid of receiving threats then end their posting with " I dare anyone come up to my face and say Erwin is not a honorable man". LOL! what a joke! hey dude, i'm pretty sure you are a dude. have some balls and have a real dialogue, and let people know who you are. what kind of "threats" can you possibly get?
SO, if you are so convinced that you are defend the honor of Erwin with all of your convictions, reveal yourself, and defend what you believe. and people, please hear the guy out and not cut him down where he stands.
i truly hope that no one reading THAT posting and this posting will come after either one of us with threat. that is not that spirit of love and not what Jesus on the cross for. i truly hope none of you will make that mistake of sending a death threat, or ANY kind of threat to anyone posting a blog on this site. it will not only demean you as a person, but will further more pain and suffering to those involved.
i am not taking sides on this MOP vs Mosaic and Erwin. I have been a part of Mosaic since 2000, and have recently left due to the simple fact that i have personally outgrown what it offers. nothing related to what others are saying about Mosaic. I have made and still have precious friends, some of who are still attending. i have seen a lot of good come out of Mosaic, and it is unfortunate that this is happening. i hope that those who have been affected will find peace and move on with their lives.
i will end with this. i am not a confrontational man. i don't make threats and do not take them likely. if ANYONE decides to make a threat towards me, i will not only respond to that threat but will make sure you understand what you are doing is a mistake. please do not make the mistake of coming at me with threats or ill mannered emails. my name is public. you can find me, but make no mistake about it, i am no push over.
now. i pray for peace for those who are and have been hurt.
please share your pains and prayers at
Kindlejoy.com
we would like to hear what prayers need to be met.
ryky
ryky wrote:
THEN, you have people keeping their name hidden claiming to be afraid of receiving threats then end their posting with " I dare anyone come up to my face and say Erwin is not a honorable man". LOL! what a joke! hey dude, i'm pretty sure you are a dude. have some balls and have a real dialogue, and let people know who you are. what kind of "threats" can you possibly get?
That's odd, when I clicked on your Blogger ID it said, "Profile not available." Why? If you truly believe in your own arguments then why are YOU hiding?
As to the topic of "threats":
NO ONE here has made any "threats" against any other poster so your point is moot.
If you want to talk about REAL THREAT TACTICS though, please ask the leadership at Mosaic why they sent a group of leaders on an unannounced visit to the home of former youth pastor Robbie Sortino at around 10:00 at night "to talk?" Follow this up by asking why, when they were denied entrance because Mr. Sortino was not at home, these SAME leaders called the POLICE the very next morning to report that they felt there was a person(s)who posed a "possible threat of violence" against Mosaic?! The police paid a house call to the Sortino home and found no evidence to support this allegation. No criminal charges were filed and no arrests were made.
This whole sordid incident is a matter of public record and cannot be denied by anyone at Mosaic.
This is OUTRAGEOUS behavior on the part of the leadership of Mosaic!
ryky, you also wrote:
i will end with this. i am not a confrontational man. i don't make threats and do not take them likely. if ANYONE decides to make a threat towards me, i will not only respond to that threat but will make sure you understand what you are doing is a mistake. please do not make the mistake of coming at me with threats or ill mannered emails. my name is public. you can find me, but make no mistake about it, i am no push over.
For someone who claims he is NOT "confrontational" you sure have a lot to say!
By the way, when you write:
"i don't make threats. . ."
but follow up that statement by continuing with,
". . . and do not take them likely. if ANYONE decides to make a threat towards me, i will not only respond to that threat but will make sure you understand what you are doing is a mistake."
Grammatically speaking, that IS a threat.
Yvonne W.
Ryke you lost me. Talks of threats towards you. Erwin is a devil to some and honorable to others. Talks about having "balls" to post name. It just seems a little inappropriate. Again, you lost me.
A MOP MEMBER (NOT THEE MOP MEMBER)
"Other's that may have a few words: George Valdez, Holly Hair, Linda Wolf, Frank Loaiza, David Torres, Carol Davis, Alan McKenzie, Ron Foster, Thom Wolf."
Speaking of Ron Foster, I ran across his blog the other day. It's www.vain-hopes.blogspot.com. I haven't seen any new posts on Erwin though. Some articles of John Eldgridge and others. Still waiting for False Teachings 3.
Can't speak for Ron, but I know it takes a lot of out of people who write and post. Its a good idea to think things through before writing.
Hey MOP,
according to an article in the magazine "Christianity Today"
April 2008 edition,
MOSAIC was a white persons' church in East LA at the Church on Brady until Erwin came to change that.
http://www.christianitytoday.com/
moi/2008/002/apr/30.30.html
The article says that Pastor Wolf left in 1996 to do overseas mission, then Erwin took over and made the Church at Mosaic a multi-ethnic church by bringing in Latino-Americans and Asian-Americans and others.
The article seems to say that the old white people at the Church on Brady in East LA did not like Latinos and Asians until Erwin came with his vision for a multi-racial , multi-ethnic church. How come there are no Asian pastors or Latino pastors (other than Erwin) or black pastors at Mosaic. Seems like this propaganda article for Erwin ignores that he keeps the pastoral staff at Mosaic pretty white like Eric Bryant, Chad Becker, Ricky Williams, Dave Auda, etc. I guess his propaganda article does not address that.
I have watched Erwin speak for about 7 years at Mosaic and he acts white not multi-ethnic. I think his multi-ethnic vision is doubletalk.
"I dare any man to come forth and say to my face, that Erwin is not an honorable man. Sometimes bloody deeds must be done to accomplish a higher goal. Sometimes the means justifies the ends I say. Who can not say that Erwin is not an honorable man...."
And, how exactly would anyone say anything to your face? You refused to leave your name. LOL
"To Matthew 5:24, who posted on May 26, 2008,
I write in defense of Erwin here. I do not leave my name for fear of being ridiculed and attacked.
I say to you that I know Erwin to be an "honorable man".
LOLOLOLOLOLOL!!!!!!!!!!!!
MOPmeber
Well Brother Thom left or as we say in the biz was shoved out in 1998 not 1996. The church does seem to be multi-cultural and its leadershipis is mixed. However, Christianity Today will be notified by its error in regards to COB's "whiteness" in its early years. Bob Duran can tell you that there were a lot of latinos in the church in the early to mid 70's (D. Auda and R. Yamamoto and E. Vazquez can attest to this as well). A lot (Tosh Garcia and Robert Martinez could also help with COB's history). The church was in East LA. Let me repeat myself the church was located in East LA. Now in the 50's, well that's a different story. But this was before the church was known as Mosaic or the Church on Brady.
---Another colleague in the Mosaic of Pain world
To the Anonymous Poster of May 30, 2008 8:56 PM who wrote:
Hey MOP,
according to an article in the magazine "Christianity Today"
April 2008 edition,
MOSAIC was a white persons' church in East LA at the Church on Brady until Erwin came to change that.
http://www.christianitytoday.com/
moi/2008/002/apr/30.30.html
Please, would you include the exact title of this article? I've already written about several CoB historical errors I've found at Christianity Today but if this is a new one, I'd like to know in which article it occurred so that I too can send a letter of complaint to the editors.
Thanks!
Yvonne W.
Referring back to my last post . . .
Is this the article in Christianity Today that the anonymous poster was referring to?
"A True Mosaic
Theme of the Week: Tackle the Ethnic Status Quo
Wednesday, April 30"
http://www.christianitytoday.com/moi/2008/002/apr/30.30.html
The article is correct in stating that the Church on Brady BEGAN as an "all white" church and that it was Bro. Tom who worked hard to change this. (He succeeded too!)
The article is incorrect and incredibly misleading when it states that . . ."despite their numerical minority, whites retained most of the church leadership," and that it wasn't until AFTER Bro. Tom left (in 1998, NOT 1996 as this article states!) that "McManus took steps to integrate the leadership of the congregation, attracting more persons of color."
Uh? HELLO!!! Aren't Latinos considered "persons of color?" According to THIS VERY SAME ARTICLE, it was Bro. Tom who changed the diversity of the congregation to 70 to 80 percent Latino!
My FATHER is a LATINO!!! Bro. Tom called him to take a position on paid staff and later ordained him!!! What about Pastor Tosh Garcia? He was also on staff at the Church on Brady and now leads his own congregation!
What about the ELDERS who were appointed long BEFORE Eriwn McManus came to the Church on Brady?
Robert Martinez - LATINO
Enrique Vazquez - LATINO
Rick Yamamoto - JAPANESE
Bro. Tom - WHITE
I've already commented on this particular bit of "newspeak" in my articles at Solid Foods (A Revisionist History of the Church on Brady?) but I am truly dismayed to see that Christianity Today continues to repeat these factual errors.
Yvonne W.
"Is this the article in Christianity Today that the anonymous poster was referring to?'
"A True Mosaic
Theme of the Week: Tackle the Ethnic Status Quo
Wednesday, April 30"
Yvonne,
The answer is Yes
...but I am truly dismayed to see that Christianity Today continues to repeat these factual errors.
Yvonne,
Someone's feeding this information. The question is -who? Someone who doesn't know or someone who doesn't care?
Just to be accurate, although there was a ethnic mix of elders, during my time at the Church on Brady these were the full time staff members and their ethnicities:
Bro Thom – White
Carol Davis – White
Brian Peterson – White
Cris Crossan – White
Bill Risinger – White
Steve Walker – White
Robert Martinez – Latino
I may have omitted someone, please let me know if I have.
Bruce Welch
If anyone else wishes to voice a complaint about this article you can write to the editors of Men of Integrity.net at:
mail@menofintegrity.net
Yvonne W.
I believe right before Bro. Thom stepped aside from Lead Pastor to Teaching Pastor he added these staff members. I am not 100% sure when George started but I think it was before Erwin.
Gary Wilson (Black)
George Valdez (Hispanic)
Robert Sortino (Italian)
Brother Thom's & Carol Davis also chose Elaine Chang (Chinese) and then later me, Cris Aguilar (Hispanic) to run the JobNet Program, a self-funded ministry of the church. We were not considered pastoral staff but rather paid ministry leaders of the Church on Brady/Mosaic.
Didn't Enrique and Rick Y. come on during Bro. Thom's tenure?
This entire site has gotten off point.
BOTTOM-LINE: A leader in the church (McManus) behaved badly and wants to sweep it under the carpet.
REPENTANCE-RESTITUTION-RESIGNATION
You MOP swine, make me very ill.
I have been going to Mosaic over 4 years and I have seen nothing but good things come out of Mosaic L.A.
I don't know much about the Church on Brady but it seems like Mosaic L.A. is doing pretty well with Erwin and they have even expanded now recently into Whittier and the Chino / Diamond Bar area.
Who knows maybe we will soon be in Riverside next to Pastor Greg Laurie and his Harvest Christian Fellowship Church soon. Maybe in 2 years Mosaic will be big in Irvine and Costa Mesa near New Song Church Irvine and Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa. The sky is the limit with Erwin and Mosaic. Mosaic may even expand into the Van Nuys and San Fernando Valley soon near the Church on the Way.
The pig who personally attacked Greg Soo Hoo and the Mosaic elders is a true Judas Iscariot. May God have mercy on his pitiful soul.
You MOP'ers are passe and outdated and stuck in the past ; you keep moaning about the Church on Brady and East L.A.; that is over 15 years ago....get a life.
Erwin is on the cutting edge. The Church on Brady is history. Give it up.....you guys know you are wrong to hold onto the past. Join us; we are the future of Christianity in the USA. We will forgive your sins if you pledge us your loyalty.
Please tell me that last comment was a joke.
Was that last poster serious?
If they were, their very own words are a sad commentary on the type of "barbarian" being turned out by Mosaic.
Yvonne W.
"You MOP swine"
Are you a Bible study leader or are you a catalyst?
"You MOP'ers are passe and outdated and stuck in the past"
Show me more of that Mosaic that is known by love.
"We will forgive your sins if you pledge us your loyalty."
Did you mean to sound like a Scientologist when you posted the above comment?
"I don't know much about the Church on Brady but it seems like Mosaic L.A. is doing pretty well with Erwin"
If there were no Brady, there'd be no Mosaic LA. Ungratefulness wears like an ugly coat.
Mosaic Faithful Beware:
- Lest you share something in confidence and EM uses it against you when you see through his guise.
- Lest you invest your energy and time in a church that will cast you aside when you begin to think for yourself.
- Lest approach an elder with a concern and subsequently find your church "friends" not so friendly.
- Lest you trust and rely upon leaders that are more concerned with the group than the individual, you.
- Lest you wake up one day and realize that your relationship with God has taken a back seat to your zeal and commitment to an organization that cares more about its image than His.
- Lest you wake up one day with the startling realization that being in the majority, and going with the flow of things, usually isn't the way God planned for us to go.
And finally...
- Lest you find yourself on here, someday, trying to call attention to a situation that very few really even care about.
To Anonymous who posted this blurp:
"....Erwin is on the cutting edge. The Church on Brady is history. Give it up.....you guys know you are wrong to hold onto the past. Join us; we are the future of Christianity in the USA..."
You are a true fool who lacks any type of spiritual discernment. If you guys are the "Future of Christianity in the USA" then the Church is truly doomed in the United States of America.
Everyone,
Can we please stop the name calling and get back to discussing the real issues?
Speaking for myself, I'm getting tired of the angry tirades.
Yvonne W.
Why don't you guys go back to the old location and purchase the property/building. Then hire your old Pastor back and all the old elders. Call it the church of Brady. Then all your problems are solved, you could pray for the Evil Empire of Mosaic & Darth Erwin to open up your worship service every week. Everyone at this site is so loving and honest, that your nobody would ever leave the Brady church. No one would ever leave Brady mad at the Pastor. I am sure Brady could be a role model for all Christians to follow. MOP opening up The Church on Brady is the future church!
Starting on June 21, you can ask Erwin anything you want: See this blurp from www.mosaic.org
" This is your chance to ask Erwin any question about any topic you want. Questions about dating, finances, or college and career choices are just a few ideas to get you started. To do this we must have your help. Starting today, you can email your written questions or make a video to be emailed to practicalwisdom@mosaic.org. "
Maybe someone should ask Erwin "what shall it profit a man to gain the whole world and lose his own soul ??" Didn't Erwin ask himself that question in his book "SOUL CRAVINGS" ??
Another good question for Erwin is "why did Jesus say if a man is found not faithful with a little thing entrusted to him by God, then even that little thing will be taken away from him by God" ??
A final good question for Erwin is:
"Why was it that Judas Iscariot started out as a small traitor by stealing from the money bag given to him by Christ and then Judas proceeded to betray Christ himself for 30 pieces of silver later ??"
To Anonymous who posted on June 14, 2008,
The money raised from the members at The Church on Brady in East L.A. for a building purchase campaign as well as the monies earned from Erwin actually selling the Church location at the Church on Brady, have been already all spent by Erwin recently.
He used all those monies from the Church on Brady to takeover the Inland Community Church in Chino Hills by paying off its building mortgage of about $700,000.
In exchange, for $700,000, the church elders there agreed to let Mosaic LA takeover the whole church and franchise it into Mosaic Inland. Sort of like McDonalds sells franchises. Inland Community Church sold its soul despite objections from hundreds of its members to Mosaic. Now the solid theology there at Inland Community Church will be transformed into tepid soup of all seeker sensitive theology aka Willow Creek theology aka lukewarm Christianity of the Church of Laodecia.
The money is gone my friend, it has been misappropriated by Erwin and his cronies. Unlike Paul the Apostle, Mosaic builds on the foundations of other Christian Churches. Paul's pledge was not to build on the foundations of other Christian churches but to go where the Gospel had not yet been preached. Read the Book of Romans, Erwin is the exact opposite of Paul the Apostle because Erwin goes where they are already Christian Churches to preach his message (e.g. hostile takeover of Chino Hills Church).
Hey Anonymous,
I agree with you that the messages at Mosaic are pretty spiritually thin and lack much Biblical substance. For example, this Mosaic message series to start on June 21, 2008 called "Practical Questions" is like a TV Talk show with Oprah or Geraldo Rivera or Jerry Springer. The only substance there is the glitzy MC speaker who himself lacks any spiritual substance.
Erwin should take a clue from the Willow Creek Church that started the whole seeker sensitive and lack of Biblical substance Sunday services movement.
After 30 years, Willow Creek admitted this year 2008, that its 30 years of seeker sensitive services and strategies has been "mistake". See article in May 2008 Christianity Today Magazine.
http://www.christianitytoday.com/
ct/2008/june/5.13.html
Erwin is making a big mistake with his hostile takeover of that solid Christian church in Chino Hills. Hundreds of members at that church (which was very solid theologically and truly evangelical) are very upset at Erwin turning that solid church into another seeker sensitive outpost of Mosaic. They are now fleeing his fast food McDonalds spiritual menu for other churches where there is real spiritual food offered to mature believers and committed disciples of Christ.
The barbarians that now man that outpost at Mosaic Inland in chino hills are not solid disciples of Christ and the overwhelming majority will not become solid disciples there with Mosaic's weak training program.
A solid fortress of Christ at Inland Community Church (like the solid spiritual church at the Church on Brady in EAst L.A.)
with solid committed Christian disciples has been transformed into a weak outpost for seeker sensitive barbarian troops.
Its a little strange that Mosaic is starting a new church. Leadership is lacking,finances is lacking and teaching is lacking, but they are beginning a new church. Scratching my head on this one.
Why are you guys so upset about the Mosaic in Chino Hills? Mosaic trains, ordains, and sends out church plants all over the US and the world every month. Have you not been counting how many Mosaic church plants have taken place. Vineyard and Calvary Chapel will have Mosaic right along side them in numbers very soon if the rate of Mosaic church plants keep growing like they have since 2004, You guys should be so excited that the little church on brady has grown to include hundreds of thousands of new converts and existing followers of Jesus Christ all over the world. It all started at Brady and now it is in Tokyo, Hong Kong, New Zealand, all over Europe, South Africa, and all over America. Erwin is not my local Mosaic church pastor, so I don't know all his faults like you claim, but it does seem Erwin has some fruit to show. I came to a relationship to Jesus Christ being my Lord & Savior through a Mosaic church in Dallas,TX. My Pastor which lead me to Christ was trained at Mosaic California under the International Mentoring Network. I have been praying about coming out to California to enter the program myself. Just be encouraged that your old church of Brady has truly touched the world with the love of Christ.
To Anonymous who posted on June 17, 2008,
You are badly misinformed about the Mosaic Inland location in Chino Hills, my brother. That was an existing and thriving church called Inland Community Church in Chino Hills, California. For the price of about $700,000, Mosaic LA bought that church and its soul and its members. It was a hostile church takeover. Most of the elders & officers consented to this hostile corporate takeover but most of the lay members at Inland Community Church opposed this hostile corporate/church takeover.
As part of the buy-out agreement, Mosaic LA erased the old church's name and re-named it Mosaic Inland.
In the corporate world, this is called a hostile corporate buy-out where the corporate officers and the corporate board of directors consent to a vulture investor group coming in and buying the corporation. The shareholders aka members of the corporation are usually financially injured as are the employees of the business. Only the Board of Directors, the officers and the vulutre investor group usually profits. It is called Mergers & Acquisitions aka T. Boone Pickens aka corporate raiders aka greed is good.
Wake up my brother, this is NO church plant but a simple church takeover.
Erwin is sadly and tragically misled in his alleged "church plants". This Chino Hills church takeover is not a church plant and goes against the teachings of the Lord in the Book of Romans. There the Apostle Paul says that Christians preaching the Gospel should not build upon another church's foundation but instead go where the Gospel has not yet been preached (that is do a real church plant or do real Christian missions in a city or land where the Gospel has not yet preached/planted).
"It has always been my ambition to preach the gospel where Christ was not known, so that I would not be building on someone else's foundation...."
ROMANS 15:20 (NIV)
It is true that all Mosaic church plants are not brand new, but sometimes are existing churches of various denominations that decide to adopt Mosaic's core values and teachings. These churches for the most part drop their old name and take on Mosaic, some decide to keep their old name. Mosaic Charlotte, NC is a congregation of 5,000 plus people that three years ago was had a different name with about 2,000 in the church. They have doubled in size and are very active in the community. I am sure the old church was not bad and I'm sure there was some old church members that left in protest. It is up to the pastor & elders to become a Mosaic church and then it is brought before the congregation for a vote. I'm sure any every church the changes over to a Mosaic there is a handful of people who don't like the change and the people who run this site would find a common bond with these individuals. I still feel you guys should be honored that there is hundreds of existing churches across the globe wanting to become a Mosaic community. That says a lot for Erwin McManus's leadership of taking the church on Brady to global influence. I do agree that I like the new Mosaic church plant start ups from scratch instead of the existing churches adopting Mosaic's values. Our Mosaic in Dallas was a new church plant that is about 4 years old with an average of 800 in the community. Mosaic has been a blessing to me and my family's life.
"I still feel you guys should be honored that there is [sic] hundreds of existing churches across the globe wanting to become a Mosaic community. That says a lot for Erwin McManus's leadership of taking the church on Brady to global influence."
Well, now that you say it that way. LOL
Very similar to convincing parents, that had their child abducted by a college professor, and that professor educated the stolen kid into becoming a college professor, as well.
"I still feel you guys should be honored that your kid is now a professor. That says a lot for the abductor."
Some pretty twisted logic there my friend...
You even admit that Erwin is doing exactly what the Baptist
Convention trained him to do - steal churches from the members and give them to the "new" leadership. : (
BTW - nobody at Brady ever wanted global influence for their church - they wanted the globe to be influenced by Jesus. BIG DIFFERENCE.
I think it would be a good idea for any church before it converts to a "new" type of church is to look at its foundation and more importantly its foundation. Anyone who doesn't come away with serious questions about Mosaic hasn't done their homework.
To: M.O.P. members
You posted the last response which said: "I think it would be a good idea for any church before it converts to a "new" type of church is to look at its foundation" .
You M.O.P. members are a bunch of hypocrites. Those people at that church in Chino Hills called "Inland Community Church" voluntarily converted their church to Mosaic Inland. Their was no dissent or opposition at all to Mosaic acquiring that Inland Empire location for Mosaic.
Mosaic was kind enough to pay off their heavy mortgage debt on their Chino Hills property of $700,000 and their leaders and elders consented to the Mosaic acquisition . They even converted their website, I think it is called www.happychurch.org to the mosaic website.
The Foundation of Mosaic is firm and Mosaic is on the cutting edge. It is the new ultimate proto-type for a successful evangelical church in America in the post-Christian age, the post-modern age where young people under 30 years of age are "unchurched" and do not know much about the Bible or Christianity. Mosaic is the future you M.O.P. hypocrites.
I find it repulsive that you guys personally attack Erwin, Greg Soo Hoo and the other elders at Mosaic. These men are the future of Christianity. You MOPPERS are relics of the past. Surrender yourselves to Coalition troops, you Baath Party dead-enders.
Look at your own foundation you M.O.P. dead-enders. Your M.O.P. foundation looks like sinking sand not rock. Thrown in the towel and shut down this hypocritical website. Mosaic is the future and the only hope for Christianity in the U.S.A. Mosaic is spreading fast like wildfire.
As a person who has been to the Chino Hills church before it became Mosaic Inland, I would like to clarify a few misconceptions/misinformation. The reason why Mosaic took over was because one of the youth leaders was accused of molesting a child. Since it was his SECOND offense, the church lost their insurance and no company would insure the church again. In addition, attendance started to dwindle. Soon after, the church was in a financial crisis; in comes Mosaic and Erwin who is friends with Ralph Neighbors. Erwin would never have stepped in if Ralph didn't ask for help. The truth is that there was a lot of opposition to the numerous changes. Overnight,entire programs were changed. Kids programs cut! Some people were also upset with the name change. To clarify, a lot of people left after Mosaic took over so if the people who stayed seem happy and tranquil, it is because the masses of disappointed ex-members have already left. If anyone on this site is from Inland, please confirm my statement.
Nick
P.S. I thought Mosaic already had a Mosaic Rancho Cucamonga? What happened to those people.
Look at your own foundation you M.O.P. dead-enders. Your M.O.P. foundation looks like sinking sand not rock. Thrown in the towel and shut down this hypocritical website. Mosaic is the future and the only hope for Christianity in the U.S.A. Mosaic is spreading fast like wildfire.
Another leader gone wild. Such wisdom...such love...why wouldn't anyone want to attend a Mosaic...geeze
Chino church should count its blessings. Pasadena Mosaic was not so lucky.
When that pastor went through a family crises Erwin saw his opportunity and systematically removed the leadership and closed the church within months.
Why? You might ask yourself. The answer is found within where McManus moved his church shortly thereafter, and where it still exists today - PASADENA.
Dear Nick,
Thank you for coming forward with the information about the child sexual abuse case involving Inland Community Church.
As far as I know, the person(s) responsible for these crimes against children were convicted.
To confirm what Nick has written about Inland Community Church please go to the news archives of the Inland Valley Daily Bulletin at:
http://www.dailybulletin.com/archivesearch
Search for the following articles:
Third youth leader accused of child sexual abuse
Author: Mason Stockstill, Staff Writer
Date: June 18, 2005
Publication: Inland Valley Daily Bulletin (Ontario, CA)
Sex abuse blamed on Chino church
Author: Mason Stockstill, Staff Writer
Date: April 19, 2005
Publication: Inland Valley Daily Bulletin (Ontario, CA)
The search will bring up a brief preview of each article but you will have to register and pay a small fee to access the entire article.
Yvonne W.
From what I can gather about this alleged molestation matter and resulting lawsuit and then Mosaic LA coming in and doing a church buy-out and takeover of "Inland Community Church" is the following.
Clearly, Ralph Neighbors did a poor to terrible job as the Pastor in hiring staff and supervising his staff at "Inland Community Church". Mr. Neighbors then compounds his incompetence and negligence in allowing this alleged molestation matter to transpire at his church , by refinancing his church's property mortgage so it can pay all or part of the lawsuit settlement for the alleged molestation by the church counselor(s). This refinancing causes the mortgage at this Chino Hills church property to balloon itself to $700,000 , to the point where the congregation is unwilling or unable to make the mortgage payments.
Finally, Mr. Neighbors compounds all these errors in leading his church by inviting Mosaic LA in to do a hostile takeover of his own church at Inland Community Church.
Mr. Neighbors betrays most of his congregation who oppose Mosaic's corporate raid of their church. As a result, the church is depleted of its old members and Mosaic LA renames it Mosaic Inland. Mosaic LA spends the $700,000 it gathered from the members of the Church on Brady in East L.A. from a church relocation campaign and all the sales proceeds from the sale of the Church on Brady property in EAst L.A. on paying off the Chino Hills, CA Church mortgage.
Chino Hills is located in San Bernardino County. I am sure that the members of the Church on Brady wanted their money to buy a church at least in Los Angeles county.
Mosaic LA in an indirect fashion has condoned the incompetence of Mr. Neighbors in the alleged molestation matter by allowing him to remain in leadership at this Chino Hills location and by indirectly financing the financial/lawsuit settlement with the child victims of the alleged molestation.
From all angles, this is not a spiritually sound investment. The incompetent pastor remains in power in Chino Hills. Most of the Inland Community Church members are forced to abandon their church which is taken over by Mosaic LA. Finally, the members of the Church on Brady in East LA are sold out and left high and dry losing their building campaign donations and the church property proceeds from the sale of their East LA church.
I think all the complaints of the M.O.P. members are worthless.
Mosaic's great leader Erwin was quoted in a big article in "Christianity Today" magazine in January 2008 where he explains why the attendance at churches in America are in decline so much.
http://www.christiantoday.com/article
/cultural.architect.why.churches.
are.declining.in.america/16238
Erwin is our great leader and our great & supreme Cultural Architect.
You M.O.P. members are crying over spilled milk. Wake up. It is the year 2008 and become culturally relevant.
See this quote from that Christianity Today article:
"Speaking about church decline in general, McManus concluded: “I think the bottom line really is our own spiritual narcissism. There are methods and you can talk about style, structure and music, but in the end it really comes down to your heart and what you care about,” he said.
He often explains that while the Bible does not change, the methods to effectively communicate the Word of God can....."
The bottom line is you M.O.P. members can hang onto the past or you can become culturally relevant. It is the duty of the Church to be relevant to the Culture. For the Church to be stubborn hang onto old traditional principles of Christianity is suicidal and stupid and to become culturally irrelevant.
We must be culturally relevant in order to reach people under 30 years old.
To the Mosaic fool who posted on July 2, 2008 at 3:15 pm, you said:
"It is the duty of the Church to be relevant to the Culture. For the Church to be stubborn hang onto old traditional principles of Christianity is suicidal and stupid and to become culturally irrelevant."
You are gravely deluded as to your understanding of the Bible and our duties as believers, my non-discerning brother. Erwin has misled you and your young friends at Mosaic.
It is NOT the highest duty of the Church of Jesus Christ to be relevant to the Culture. However, it is the highest Duty of the Church to be FAITHFUL TO THE PRINCIPLES OF THE GOSPEL OF JESUS CHRIST AND to the Word of God.
Often to be culturally relevant, churches in this so called post-Christian period will betray and deny the highest duty that the Church of Jesus Christ has been given by God.
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