Anonymous said on March 7, 2007 9:10 PM
Cris,
What can members at Mosaic do to help get the two sides to the table? Because there are people at Mosaic who would like this to be resolved.
---------- My Response -------
First, I would pray for God's guidance on both sides of this issue. Please pray for the truth to come out and glorify God. This whole thing can look and feel so ugly at times but I am sure most of us really do want to be honorable and upright in all that we do. I know there are those that feel their call to this point is prayer, please continue praying for God's hand to be on all of us on both sides of this. Please pray for the truth to prevail.
Second, I would be asking questions both on this site and to the elders of this church. I would be looking for answers to many of these questions. There are so many unanswered questions. If you have read the hundreds of comments to this point on the various blogs you will find dozens of unanswered questions. You will have also read first hand testimony of real hurt, real pain. It all points to a pattern of pain, pain inflicted by one man. I would be asking lots of questions.
Some questions I would be asking if I were a member of this church is the same as the day I left Mosaic. Why are we allowing this one man hurt so many? Why is he removing those that keep him accountable? Why is this whole church wrapped around one man?
Prayer and questions would be a starting point. I am obviously beyond the point of asking questions and have move to a call of action. I appreciate the fact that you may not be at this point and assume you are asking because you haven't asked, you haven't acted. And PLEASE don't ask one elder, one staff member or one leader. I would ask each and every one. Seek them out.
Does anyone else have a question they would be asking if they were a current member of this church? Maybe there are other things someone would suggest a member of this church to do besides these questions.
Any thoughts?
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53 comments:
I have a question-
Does the church members have access to the financial records at Mosaic? Are there business meetings that give the members access to the monthly and yearly giving in what areas the tithes are going. Most churches have monthly, quarterly or yearly meetings that open this type of information to the members. Its a good type of accountability. MH
Pete,
Thank you for entering the discussion. I believe most would agree that Mosaic isn't "perfect." And no MOP member would ever put Erwin on a pedestil, because most of us know him very well. And most of us understand the "grace" God has given us. And none of us have ever said we want wrath or revenge. Revenge on who? Who has time for that? We're all believers, we as you should, expect our leaders to do the simple things like ask for forgiveness when they have done wrong. And step down when they habitually do it. I believe there is no remorse with Erwin. If there was he would have done the right thing a long time ago. I'm quite surprised you wouldn't be concerned about this at a church you attend. You have misunderstood our hearts. There may be some who don't care until they are hurt. Everyting eventually comes out in the light. If it wasn't Mosaic of Pain it would have been another forum. This was long over due. Repentance, Resignation and Restitution that's it. Many of us have already forgiven Erwin for his handling of leaders, pastors, missionaries etc. Resolution for Erwin will probably come when he asks for forgiveness. You may want to ask your leaders why pastors are held to a different standard at Mosaic.
I have read all your comments and I can see that you have some very valid concern. I know many of you have been wronged. But lets not place erwin on a pedestal. he is one very flawed human being. but, aren't we all? from the numerous postings, i can tell that many of you are not seeking resolution or forgiveness but rather wrath or revenge. I say examine your own heart and find it within yourselves to forgive EVEN if he never apologizes to you directly. remember the grace God showed you when he forgave you of all your sins and trespasses against Him. at least you can show a ounce of grace toward someone you once called your brother. Believe me, it is nothing compared to the grace God has shown you.
I do not deny the fact that mosaic is full of flaws. i also cannot deny the fact that many many people have been blessed by the ministries at mosaic. mosaic has taught me that every once in a while, i need to take the focus off of "me" and that's good. i know that i can visit any church and dissect it and tell you what is theologically wrong with them. i would like someone to lead me to the "perfect" church with the perfect theology and perfect staff. but, until then, i will be at the willaim mott auditorium every sunday at 9:30 sharp!!!
peter
Looking in....
Cris ~
I think YOUR questions are on the right track to start with.
Peter ~
I see your point (in a nut shell) about no one is perfect and to forgive and forget. If I understood you right. However, did you understand what Cris wrote? Erwin "continues" to hurt people. This is why MOP has a mission. Would you let a child continue to break windows, without consequences, just because we forgive him each time? Should we let the burglar go, without consequences, each time just because he said sorry to the judge and not the victims?
I AM NOT SAYING ERWIN IS A CHILD OR A BURGLAR.
I just don't think this is about revenge, wrath or perfectionism.
~Christine
P.s. Hi Eddie ;)
Peter wrote:
"I have read all your comments and I can see that you have some very valid concern."[sic]
You admit that these are "valid" concerns, yet you think they do not need to be addressed?
"I know many of you have been wronged. But lets not place erwin on a pedestal. he is one very flawed human being. but, aren't we all?"
Absolutely, we are all very flawed. God tells us, to that end, if we will confess our sins He will not only forgive us of them, but set us free from them as well. Key word here "confess" - something Erwin is unwilling to do.
"...from the numerous postings, i can tell that many of you are not seeking resolution or forgiveness but rather wrath or revenge."
Peter, where do you see the words, "wrath or revenge"? How about, "repentance" "resignation" and "restitution"?
"I say examine your own heart and find it within yourselves to forgive EVEN if he never apologizes to you directly."
Many of us have moved on, however, the important part of "forgiveness" is that it needs to be requested, it can not be GIVEN if it has not been requested.
"...remember the grace God showed you when he forgave you of all your sins and trespasses against Him."
Yes, and He did so upon our REQUESTING His forgiveness - otherwise He might as well just forgive the entire world and let's have a nice happy time together. Repentance proceeds forgiveness. God's rules, not ours.
"...at least you can show a ounce of grace toward someone you once called your brother. Believe me, it is nothing compared to the grace God has shown you."
Why do you think so many have waited and prayed for many years before doing this?
Ironically, it is individuals like you, Peter, that force this type of blog to appear. You admit that there have been wrongs, yet you want to just ignore them and still attend your church like nothing has happened. That, unfortunately, sounds like what got the Catholic church in some very big trouble over the past few decades. Peter, pull your head out and do what is right.
If the rest of Mosaic feels as you do, then maybe it should close it doors and not exist.
I have been on the fence with this whole issue for a while. I have heard your stories here about how hurtful Erwin has been, and I don’t doubt that in your perspective he has been. You also claim that Erwin’s character is corrupt as well. I have also talked with several leaders at Mosaic, as you have said to do many times, and they have show their side and I have never personally seen or experienced Erwin do anything hurtful or out of bad character, so I cannot make any conclusions as of now.
My thought was this. I have been through two church transitions at other churches. In both of them, there was struggle over who was leading, and what was right. As new values, strategies and missions were implemented, inevitably someone felt hurt or cheated. Most of the pain you have been describing occurred around the time of this transition to Mosaic. While I am not downplaying your pain at all, I wonder if all of this hurt is connected to that transition, feeling like you say was left out, or that you didn’t agree with changing values.
I say that because most people who have shared their stories here have been from 5 – 6 years ago. I have not heard any recent stories of hurt and pain besides the issue with this elder Robert. Even with that, you would probably be happy that one of them is finally out of leadership and unable to hurt anyone else. But, this all leads me to believe that Erwin’s character is at worst inconsistent, and was corrupted a few years back during a church transition. You have said things like “There may be some who don't care until they are hurt”, but what about those who have been there for years and have not experiences this hurt?
I don’t know. That is my 2 cents for what it is worth. I am still confused and looking for truth. Praying for all parties involved,
Kirsten Berge
Kirsten,
Thank you for your prayers. They are appreciated.
Eddie Marshall
Kristen - if anyones "character is/was corrupt" at any time then this needs to be addressed. To my knowledge there is no statue of limitations on this type of thing in the church.
You mentioned that an elder has been removed. Was it for the issues being brought out here? I don't think so, maybe he has been forced out because he tried to address some of the issues brought up here?
At least you are on the fence about this and for that I give you credit. If you do decide to go one way or the other please leave a comment here as to why. That is what this is all about. Truth Discovery as Robbie puts it.
"I have read all your comments and I can see that you have some very valid concern. I know many of you have been wronged. But lets not place erwin on a pedestal. ... but, until then, i will be at the willaim mott auditorium every sunday at 9:30 sharp!!!
peter"
So, Peter, will you be there watching Erwin on his pedestal? I mean PODIUM!?
Kirsten,
I know for a fact that there are people who have contributed to MOP who have little concern about “the old days”. Brother Thom, Robert and other past elders are the ones who brought Erwin into this community in the first place. I have very little, if any respect for these men. Where are they now? Why have they not spoken out? It bothers me that people have allowed these blogs to become a place where past events revolving around Brother Thom can be discussed. This is not about the past, it’s about the future.
I know for a fact that there are many people who still attend mosaic who agree with much of what MOP members have written here. It seems these people are so connected in the culture and social benefits of the mosaic community that it has become an inconvenience for them to speak out. They sure do read this blog however. I think that the birth of MOP has definitely drawn a clear line between those who “talk” and those who “act”.
Also, I know for a fact that you are not talking to people here that have a problem with church transition. In fact, many of the people who have spoken out against Erwin were once apart of bringing about change in the mosaic community. Many people here have been part of starting new services, creating new events, and creating new ministries in mosaic. It seems mosaic staff wants to convince many of the new people at mosaic that we were all connect to one time of mosaic past and we all left for the same reason. I promise you that is not true. Not everything has been revealed yet.
I say that because most people who have shared their stories here have been from 5 – 6 years ago. I have not heard any recent stories of hurt and pain besides the issue with this elder Robert. Even with that, you would probably be happy that one of them is finally out of leadership and unable to hurt anyone else. But, this all leads me to believe that Erwin’s character is at worst inconsistent, and was corrupted a few years back during a church transition. You have said things like “There may be some who don't care until they are hurt”, but what about those who have been there for years and have not experiences this hurt?
Kirsten Berge,
I am Robert Martinez'daughter. I believe I can correctly say that for many people, my father's FORCED retirement from the paid staff of Mosaic was perhaps the "straw that broke the camel's back." I would not be posting here at all if I felt there were bad feelings between my fellow posters and my father. The phone conversations I've had with several of these posters confirm my belief.
(If there is anyone out there who feels my father has wronged them, PLEASE! I BEG you to either contact him! He DOES NOT want to leave his beloved ministry with any unresolved issues.)
As of this moment though, I know that my father's name has been mentioned in several posts in such a way that the reader might assume "guilt by association" but such an assumption would be incorrect. (I am referring to Eddie Marshall's post in which his intent was merely to identify my father as having been a witness to the events that transpired.)
[Eddie: Please confirm or deny this. Thanks]
My father served at The Church on Brady/Mosaic for 28 years as a member of the paid staff.
My father was elected to be an elder through a direct vote of the congregation.
My father is deeply hurt by the actions that were taken against him and were it not for the callous way in which he was treated I would not have re-involved myself with this organization.
I hope you can hear me when I say that the questions raised by the people here at MOP are still relevant and not relics of the not-so-distant past.
If you are truly looking for answers from the leaders at Mosaic then I strongly urge you to poll ALL five of the church elders, not just one or two. I guarantee, you will find a marked difference of opinion in at least one of them (in addition to those of my own father.)
Yvonne W.
Yvonne wrote:
-- As of this moment though, I know that my father's name has been mentioned in several posts in such a way that the reader might assume "guilt by association" but such an assumption would be incorrect. (I am referring to Eddie Marshall's post in which his intent was merely to identify my father as having been a witness to the events that transpired.)
[Eddie: Please confirm or deny this. Thanks] --
That is correct. I listed who was at the meeting with myself and Erwin. Those meetings were to address a couple of different things. How the Bro Thom ousting was handled, and some rumors that ERWIN was spreading about myself and my family. I did not want to say there was an "elder" there without giving his name, so I mentioned him by name because he was in attendance. I had asked Robert to set up the meeting with myself and Erwin, I assume that was why Robert M was there.
Eddie Marshall
On Coming Traffic wrote:
"I know for a fact that there are people who have contributed to MOP who have little concern about “the old days”. Brother Thom, Robert and other past elders are the ones who brought Erwin into this community in the first place. I have very little, if any respect for these men. Where are they now? Why have they not spoken out? It bothers me that people have allowed these blogs to become a place where past events revolving around Brother Thom can be discussed. This is not about the past, it’s about the future."
I hear you when you express your frustration about those who brought Erwin in, however, it happened. Was it to cause hurt and pain? No. I believe those who brought this individual in were fooled. I believe they wanted the best for all.
You mention it is not about the past but the future. Remember, if we do not learn from the past we are destine to repeat it in the future.
Lastly, you ask why these men do not speak up. In time, they will.
Oops again!
Sorry for the typos.
Y
Why haven't the elders joined in and express a comment jointly? Is it possible that they are not in agreement. The answer is obvious. And maybe we will hear from them soon. We respectfully wait. MH
Good point MH. Why doesn't Mosaic leadership e.g. the elders make a formal statement like?
"We categorically deny all of these allegations. Further more we want to show our unity by listing all of our names here."
That should not be that difficult. Right?
Can you please clarify something for me. I know that they asked Robert Martinez to resign as a paid staff (Pastor). But he is still an elder right?
If he is not, why not?
Can you clarify?
Robert is still an elder.
That's the usual procedure of Erwin/Mosaic. Take away the pastor position, the elder position, then ask them to go away quietly and never come back.
This time is different. Thanks MOP
Have you guys read Ruben's latest review. The link is below:
In Love with Night
The calm before the storm.
quit hating on Erwin, he leads people to Christ and is all about the revival in this land and around the world.
so Erwin can pretty much step on anyone he wants so long as he is "leading people to Christ!?"
Let's get our house in order and marvel in what God will do
Word has it that Mosaic spent the "Believe The Impossible" money on the Chino church. -- As in it is all gone.
Does that concern anyone?
WHAT!??? Are these guys crazy. Can they do that?
I heard their giving money back to people that ask for it.
They told us they were going to use this money to build a church in Los Angeles!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Chino is in Pomona County. It isn't even in L.A. County!!!!!
Where did you hear this? Why doesn't Mosaic open its books. Members of Mosaic---Do you know where your tithes are going? Do you care?
Where is Pomona County?
Yes, the fund was spent in part to buy the facility at Inland (which is 1.3 miles outside of LA County), to refurbish William Carey (Mosaic has it on full lease for 7 years) and is looking for land in Beverly Hills (btw, there is no Pomona County). So, technically they did spend the money on a building.
When did they say they were giving the money back?
Also, they did open the budget for everyone on volunteer staff. That is standard church policy, right? Members can look at the books. I don't know too many churches that would open their books to just anyone.
Pass the kool-aid--Erwin's doing revival in the land--Pass the kool-aid--you guys are just haters---pass the kool-Things are different, you guys don't understand--pass the kool-aid--What's believe the impossible--pass the kook-aid
correction, Pomona is in LA County. Chino, which borders Pomona (LA County is in San Bernardino County). I know that many of you have not been to Mosaic for many years, but Erwin is not the one who makes all of these decisions now.
http://cao.lacounty.gov/forms/09-10%20Cities%20Alpha.pdf
The Chino site was an original plant of Brady. So, technically there has been a relationship there for over 20 years since Tom.
Kirstien,
You wrote:
"Yes, the fund was spent in part to buy the facility at Inland (which is 1.3 miles outside of LA County), to refurbish William Carey (Mosaic has it on full lease for 7 years) and is looking for land in Beverly Hills (btw, there is no Pomona County). So, technically they did spend the money on a building."
So, some of the money was spent "in part" on buying a building outside of Los Angeles County, correct? And the other part was spent on a "leased" auditorium, correct?
But at this weekends leadership meeting for Mosaic it was announced that ALL of the "Believe The Impossible" fund was spent, correct?
So, where will the money for purchasing some of the most expensive land in the country come from? 90212
Most churches do and I don't remember Mosaic ever opening their books up to their "volunteer staff". And yes they have given money back. Kristen you may want to check with an elder. Someone's not giving you all the correct info. get back to us when you ask an elder (any elder will do. Ask them why money was given and why they aren't giving it out. Something fishy going on. I hope you'll ask and not be like the others who are just happy to keep their head in the sand.
"I know that many of you have not been to Mosaic for many years, but Erwin is not the one who makes all of these decisions now."
Thanks for clearing that up. So, this goes beyond Erwin to the elders and the leaders as the Primary Aim has alluded:
The primary aim of Mosaic Of Pain is to call for Repentance, Resignation and Restitution of the leadership group of Mosaic, specifically it’s elders and lead pastor Erwin McManus, considering the abuse of power, abuse of finances and the abuse of God’s word.
Kirstien: are you at least uncomfortable with the fact that BTI was initiated in 1997 and suddenly then suddenly, they buy a building when former members began asking questions about the ministry and finances of Mosaic? In addition, it was implicit that the funds would go to a building in the greater Los Angeles area. Does that make you uneasy that they were used so far off the beaten path? If you are not uncomfortable with this then I dont know what else to say.
For those interested:
Chino is in San Bernardino County
Here is a listing on wikipedia:
Chino California
Here is a listing from its own website:
Chino California Website
Thanks Cris...here is a direct quote from the link, "About Chino:
Chino is a city located in San Bernardino County, California."
http://www.chinocalifornia.com/
For those interested (in facts):
I am quoting from one of the original "believing the impossible" brochures. On page three it states:
"From Pastor Erwin
five years ago, the Lord led us to join our lives with you to see the city of Los Angeles reached with the Gospel. Today, God is challenging us to act in faith to claim and impact Los Angeles with the life changing message of our Lord Jesus Christ. We are at a defining moment in the history of our congregation and, I believe, the future of this city...."
Some sites of interest for anyone who wants to know...
http://www.irs.gov/charities/churches/index.html
http://sec.gov/
http://www.irs.gov/charities/charitable/article/0,,id=96099,00.html
This would be a good time for a joint elder statement. We contiune to wait respectfully. Everything in the dark eventually comes out in the light. Right?
I was apart of the "believe the impossible" team. There is much to say on the subject and details to provide but for now I can tell you that San Bernardino County was not apart of the equation.
For more information on the history of the Church on Brady please go to:
http://solidfoods.blogspot.com/
Yvonne
Someone's 15 years are up
How is it that two completely separate news sources (L.A. Times & Pepperdine University Graphic) are both stating, "McManus was a key player in Mosaic’s development and attention-grabbing growth. He started an alternative service to the now-closed church on Brady, six years ago. Since then, it has grown from fewer than 100 members to nearly 2,000."
Those of us that were there know what this means. But carefully chosen words make it sound completely different to the uniformed reader. Good job EM! You're STEALTH!!! Your mastery of disinformation is admirable.
Your friend,
Screw Tape
http://graphic.pepperdine.edu/living/2005/2005-01-13-mosaic.htm
Erwin has shared with his congregation that he is not emergent. Why does he continue to run with these individuals? This summer he will be speaking at Willow Creek Church with a number of emergent speakers including Dan Kimball and emergent guru Brian McLaren. He runs with these people and is promoted by David Jeremiah. Erwin is not only emergent, he is one of the main voices of the movement. What will it take for people to open their eyes? Does anyone at Mosaic truly believe he isn't emergent?
http://www.fromthelighthouse.com/blog/index.php?p=543&more=1&c=1
Jacob
The Pepperdine article can be found here:
http://graphic.pepperdine.edu
/living/2005/2005-01-13-mosaic.htm
Stop what your doing and listen to Mike Corley #3 and Read a Revisionist History of the Church on Brady. Two powerful features, thanks Yvonne, Cris and Ken.
There is alot happening and the current features are excellent.
Follow the following links:
A Revisionist History of the Church on Brady?
The Corley Show #3
and ofcourse you can find them both and more at:
Mosaic Of Pain
.
Los Angeles + Chino = ??????
=Mosaic
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