tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4816732093186928774.post3898317684762791920..comments2023-03-26T02:30:44.066-07:00Comments on Mosaic Of Pain: MOP Comments (Page 8)Cris Aguilarhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10950908651660523514noreply@blogger.comBlogger206125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4816732093186928774.post-29417640185786381572008-07-01T09:25:00.000-07:002008-07-01T09:25:00.000-07:00Hello...I just came across your blog this morning ...Hello...I just came across your blog this morning and wanted to respond.<BR/><BR/>I found you as I was doing what my friend calls an "ego Google," looking up an old friend from Mosaic, curious what he was up to in the world. And the reason I no longer know firsthand what he is up to is that I, too, had an unfortunate departure from Mosaic about four years ago.<BR/><BR/>As I've moved on and healed quite a bit from the experience, I'm on the fence as to whether sharing my story again would help or hinder. But I must say there is a part of me that is sadly relieved to know that I, at least, am not alone in my disappointment.<BR/><BR/>For what it's worth - a few thoughts I came to realize in sorting out the situation...<BR/><BR/>How we choose, as humans, to make religion happen (I know "religion" is a highly unpopular term at Mosaic and similar institutions. But it is, to me, the rules and regulations set forth by any spiritual group as to how they believe one gets access to God...be it through community, through self, through rituals, etc.) is a choice. It is a selection. And these days, there is a boundless array of varieties from which to choose.<BR/><BR/>Mosaic adheres to a certain brand of Christian practices. One that can inspire creativity, community, and personal improvement on a variety of levels. Those, in my opinion, are its strengths. And seven years ago, they are what drew me to Mosaic.<BR/><BR/>However, Mosaic is a place of definite boundaries. What may be considered grey areas to many seem to be hard and fast black and white to Mosaic.<BR/><BR/>I can't speak to any recent accusations regarding abuse of financial resources or other issues that have been mentioned. But I can speak to a seemingly uncharacteristic, nearly inhumane relaying of a message to me about the clearly "unacceptable behavior" of falling in love with a Jewish man.<BR/><BR/>I have replayed the scenario a thousand times in my head. Only two weeks after meeting this man and realizing that I wanted to get to know him better, I arranged a meeting with one of the pastors to discuss it. I anticipated being challenged - which I had hoped would help grant me clarity on the topic, one way or the other. I wanted to share my joys and - at that time - fears about the situation above ground. I didn't want to sneak around behind closed doors about this relationship. (Man, these notions all seem so archaic to me now...something out of the Dark Ages. Why on earth, would anyone feel ANYTHING but joy about meeting someone as loving as this man I met?) <BR/><BR/>But what I didn't anticipate was, two months later to show up for a rehearsal only to be told to pack up my instrument and not bother to show up to play that Sunday morning. I was no longer "fit" to share my gifts in that way. I was now "a bad influence on the daughters of the church." (Sadly, it was a friend of mine who was put in place to be the messenger of this little piece of information. He wasn't the decision maker. Just the poor guy who had to tell me about it.) (As a side grievance, that was a really awful position to have put this man in. The pastor should've dealt with me directly. I hope he took this guy out for a big fat lunch or something...)<BR/><BR/>After much thought about how to respond, spinning through almost every emotion in the book, I decided to show up the following Sunday at the morning service. My Jewish boyfriend went with me, determined - in spite of the hardships of the previous days - to support me in my decision to remain in the community. We sat in the second row, not hiding from anyone. Ironically...EXTREMELY ironically...the message was about how there really isn't any reason for Jews and Christians to not be friends.<BR/><BR/>As Erwin said: "After all, Jesus was a Jew..."<BR/><BR/>Blah, blah, blah. <BR/><BR/>(No offense, Erwin...you said many good things that morning. A very good sermon. But it all sounded like bull, after what I had experienced the days before.)<BR/><BR/>I attended one more service on my own after that. No one approached me with the usual hugs and hellos those two Sundays. Not one. It seemed that I had fallen outside of grace.<BR/><BR/>I was connected to many leaders of the church at the time, believing them to be my friends. But the saddest part of it to me was that no one...not a single member of the leadership team...contacted me in the weeks / months that followed to check on how I was doing. After what was an emotionally agonizing two months, I emailed one of these friends, asking why this had happened in this way. Adding insult to injury, he responded by sharing HIS disappointment with ME, that I would choose to leave the church.<BR/><BR/>To his great credit, I did have a good conversation with David Arcos around that same time. I was extremely blunt about how destructive the lead team's decision and the way they carried it out was to me and to many...MANY...non-Christians around me (after hearing about my experience, imagine explaining to a descendent of the Holocaust how, exactly, my church wasn't Anti-Semitic). David was receptive to what I said and, although he couldn't apologize on behalf of the Lead Team, he apologized for failing me as a friend.<BR/><BR/>As months and years passed, I have remained in touch with a few of the musician friends I made there, as well. They shared in my sorrow of my departure and supported me joyfully as that Jewish man and I got married.<BR/><BR/>I have no grievance against Erwin. I thoroughly enjoyed my conversations with him and was enlightened by what he had to say many times over.<BR/><BR/>But as for the team that he undoubtedly led, I'm not really certain what happened behind closed doors. Why my heart, my friendship, and my countless hours of service to the Mosaic community didn't seem to register when they made such a blunt move against my decision to question the black and white is a mystery to me. There was no attempt to meet with my now husband and me (he was even coming to services with me up until I was "fired"). There was no option laid out to me. Just walking papers out of the blue. Pure and simple.<BR/><BR/>I will have to address the damage Mosaic did to my husband's family's understanding of Christian love for the rest of my life. That's the consequence of my decision to have invested so deeply in being a part of Mosaic.<BR/><BR/>So, at the end of the day, what have I concluded for myself? <BR/><BR/>I now have a very deep-seeded opinion that any label that one chooses to put on...be it Christian, Jewish, Muslim, black, white, American, whatever...that triggers something in his/her brain that says "this one belongs, but that one doesn't"...Any label that creates an Us versus Them scenario has great potential for destruction. <BR/><BR/>Clearly, my decision to love someone who didn't fit in the box made ME someone who didn't fit in the box. (And, to be accurate to the story, I not only received grief from Christians in this scenario...A few of my husband's family members also had trouble accepting someone outside of their own box. Sadly, there seems to be a pandemic of fear-based exclusions residing in many religious institutions. It's tragic. Humans made religion. We create God in our own image everyday. And that one dares to justify punishing and judging others with "God-sponsored" reasons is despicable to me.)<BR/><BR/>All that being said, going back to the notion of selection...<BR/><BR/>Mosaic's is a certain brand of Christian religion. It is one that encourages "this is right...and that is wrong. And if you choose outside our lines, there will consequences...even before heaven and hell." For example, there was a Right and Wrong way for me to find a soulmate. It just so happens, my perfect mate was from the "Wrong" camp.<BR/><BR/>That kind of thinking really works for a lot of people. Truly. To learn a structure of how to think of themselves, God and others so that they don't have to sort through the grey matter of the world. It's a very comforting and protected place to be. You become insulated from assimilating to those you don't know or understand. You don't have to deal with the complicated, often discouraging aspects of human behavior. Someone is instructing you how (and how not) to handle yourself.<BR/><BR/>And in some periods of a person's life, I think that is a justifiable and self-preserving place to be.<BR/><BR/>Although I may be doing a miserable job of expressing it and I myself can't sign up for it, I genuinely don't begrudge those for whom it does work. I walked willingly into Mosaic, looking for something. No one held a gun to my head and said I had to buy their brand of belief. A classic case of "Buyer Beware." Mosaic has spread a lot of love and joy and personal honesty into places and people who were filled with darkness. And I still find myself dancing to the music in my head that used to fill my Sunday mornings in those years.<BR/><BR/>But clearly, Mosaic is not a place I would ever choose to be again. I know this now. Mosaic's penchant for black and white doesn't work for me and my world view. I can choose to be somewhere else and let those for whom Mosaic DOES work to live in peace.<BR/><BR/>And in that revelation, I found MY peace.<BR/><BR/>For any of you out there who have been outcast like this, I feel for your pain. I know what that is and I'm sorry you've gone through it. But I'm hoping it has made you a stronger, more loving being on the other side.<BR/><BR/>For those of you who are seemingly really angry about Erwin's success, keep in mind that he is very good at what he does. Like the leader of any successful business, he is focused, gifted, passionate, and frankly...well-marketed. Last time I checked, those things aren't sins. Now, I don't happen to be interested in what he is "selling," and if you're upset by what he's up to, I'm guessing you aren't, either. In my opinion, there are far worse crimes in the world than to capitalize on your skills as a communicator to get folks going to church. Even one that is self-serving on occasion. Erwin and Mosaic offers a certain thing that is good for certain people.<BR/><BR/>Allegations of immoral, untruthful or illegal behavior, of course, is something else. And I'm still trying to understand the stories behind where those accusations come from. So, no comments from me on that.<BR/><BR/>As for any Mosaic lead team members reading this, I hope you will sift through whatever false accusations you might come across to find the nuggets of truth that tug at your heart. I understand that you feel the need to draw lines in the sand. Fair enough. It's your church and you are free to view your purpose as you wish.<BR/><BR/>But I hope in recent years you have reconsidered the means and methods with which you imbue your message. <BR/><BR/>Wishing peace to all,<BR/>Lynn HutchinsonLynn Hutchinsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12751568533023134560noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4816732093186928774.post-91168058535597026572008-04-11T15:08:00.000-07:002008-04-11T15:08:00.000-07:00************************************The conversati...************<BR/>************<BR/>************<BR/><BR/>The conversation has been moved over one page, which is called MOP Comments (Pg 9). <BR/><BR/>Click the following link to continue on: <BR/><BR/><A HREF="http://mosaicofpaincontinues.blogspot.com/2008/04/mop-comments-page-9.html" REL="nofollow">MOP Comments (Pg 9)</A><BR/><BR/><BR/>.Cris Aguilarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10950908651660523514noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4816732093186928774.post-79344271564915042002008-04-10T16:31:00.000-07:002008-04-10T16:31:00.000-07:00Did anyone see Erwin McManus on TBN this week? Cu...Did anyone see Erwin McManus on TBN this week? Curious what people think about that interview?<BR/><BR/>http://www.tbn.org/index.php/2/37.html<BR/><BR/>(Apr 08 episode)<BR/><BR/>J.R.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4816732093186928774.post-57703836733551162382008-03-31T12:11:00.000-07:002008-03-31T12:11:00.000-07:00That Bro. Tom, What a guy. He always said he would...That Bro. Tom, What a guy. He always said he wouldn't leave unless he was asked. SorryAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4816732093186928774.post-28355639281224051482008-03-30T13:02:00.000-07:002008-03-30T13:02:00.000-07:00Nice tribute Yvonne. On target as always. MHNice tribute Yvonne. On target as always. MHAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4816732093186928774.post-6149751965362557382008-03-27T19:48:00.000-07:002008-03-27T19:48:00.000-07:00Anonymous said... so i don't get it, if mosaic is ...<I> Anonymous said... <BR/>so i don't get it, if mosaic is in a financial mess. why r they starting a new service in whittier? i hope its ok to write, Easter has passed.<BR/><BR/>March 24, 2008 8:15 PM</I><BR/><BR/>You're right, Easter is over now so here is a link to my latest post on Erwin McManus and Mosaic. <BR/><BR/>By the way, that is an interesting question you posed. I would also like to hear the answer to it.<BR/><BR/>Yvonne W.<BR/><BR/>Awaken Humanity's Slice of the Mosaic Pie<BR/><BR/>http://solidfoods.blogspot.com/2008/02/awaken-humanitys-slice-of-mosaic-pie.htmlYvonne W.https://www.blogger.com/profile/17186217915404520787noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4816732093186928774.post-80314092308355262512008-03-24T20:15:00.001-07:002008-03-24T20:15:00.001-07:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4816732093186928774.post-55557584655133281612008-03-24T20:15:00.000-07:002008-03-24T20:15:00.000-07:00so i don't get it, if mosaic is in a financial mes...so i don't get it, if mosaic is in a financial mess. why r they starting a new service in whittier? i hope its ok to write, Easter has passed.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4816732093186928774.post-5743947382097249762008-03-18T10:17:00.000-07:002008-03-18T10:17:00.000-07:00Let the bell ring once again.Let the bell ring once again.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4816732093186928774.post-73599730864853542972008-03-17T14:36:00.000-07:002008-03-17T14:36:00.000-07:00Wouldn't Easter be a great time to come clean? And...Wouldn't Easter be a great time to come clean? And maybe that's a good question for not only Erwin, but all of us.Matthew 5:24https://www.blogger.com/profile/16935076329121328940noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4816732093186928774.post-48082922022244840972008-03-16T12:22:00.000-07:002008-03-16T12:22:00.000-07:00I agree with Anonymous that during this Palm Sunda...I agree with Anonymous that during this Palm Sunday/ Easter time, both the Mosaic and MOP members should put down their weapons and stop fighting.<BR/><BR/>As for me, I am tired of war and I am weary of battles. I will make a separate peace for myself at the Cross. I will say a farewell to arms. I am now a slave of Christ. I submit my will to the Will of God.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4816732093186928774.post-79612051680971350322008-03-12T15:12:00.000-07:002008-03-12T15:12:00.000-07:00"I think that all the MOP members and the Mosaic l..."I think that all the MOP members and the Mosaic loyalists and everyone else should just declare a truce, a cease-fire....if just for a temporary or short time during this Easter season. Palm Sunday is coming up with Good Friday and then Easter."<BR/><BR/>Why not also forget all the pain and suffering in the world as well. Let's just all pretend for awhile. <BR/><BR/>Kumbaya my Lord, kumbaya<BR/>Kumbaya my Lord, kumbaya<BR/>Kumbaya my Lord, kumbaya<BR/>Oh Lord, kumbayaAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4816732093186928774.post-43272008145894227772008-03-12T12:39:00.000-07:002008-03-12T12:39:00.000-07:00Cris,I think the whole idea of giving shoes to the...Cris,<BR/>I think the whole idea of giving shoes to the mission is a good one. Although, Erwin was a little dramatic, not surprisingly, it was still a good gesture.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4816732093186928774.post-43654781062881970022008-03-12T12:29:00.000-07:002008-03-12T12:29:00.000-07:00Anonymous,I think that all the MOP members and the...Anonymous,<BR/><BR/>I think that all the MOP members and the Mosaic loyalists and everyone else should just declare a truce, a cease-fire....if just for a temporary or short time during this Easter season. Palm Sunday is coming up with Good Friday and then Easter.<BR/><BR/>Maybe instead of fighting and debating one another we should all just focus on the sacrifice of our Lord and Savior. We should all realize that we are flawed sinners like Barrabas, the killer and robber, set free by the Roman governor. Jesus took the place of Barrabas at the cross at Calvary.<BR/><BR/>We are all like Barrabas, guilty sinners who deserve to die. Jesus took the punishment meant for Barrabas and all of us.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4816732093186928774.post-62926706365801407182008-03-11T20:19:00.000-07:002008-03-11T20:19:00.000-07:00Anonymous,If Erwin wants to show his compassion, t...Anonymous,<BR/><BR/>If Erwin wants to show his compassion, then instead of asking for people's shoes this past Sunday, March 9th, Erwin should have rolled <BR/>up his shirt sleeves and offered to<BR/>wash anyone's feet who came up to the front of the auditorium.<BR/>To be a true leader, you need to be a servant of all others.<BR/>I don't see Erwin M. as a servant.<BR/><BR/>He likes to be in the limelight. He wants to be a celebrity or a movie star or a famous writer. He would fit in with those who seek fame and fortune at the Celebrity Centre for the Church of Scientology, the cult of greed and fame.<BR/><BR/>Erwin M. would rather be seen with Tom Cruise or some other secular movie star than with Mother Theresa or another believer who spends their life in service to the poor.<BR/><BR/>Erwin M. should have had a big pan of water and a towel last Sunday and washed people's feet. His message was that Christians should not seek out situations where they would be oppressed or persecuted because in life oppression and persecution would find them anyway.<BR/><BR/>What kind of screwed up message is that....to tell believers to avoid situations in life where they will suffer oppression/persecution ??<BR/>He is telling others to be cowards and not to serve others if it puts them in a difficult or painful environment.<BR/><BR/>Erwin should have gotten on his knees like Christ and washed anyone's feet who came up to the front of the auditorium.......<BR/>Instead he asked for their used shoes.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4816732093186928774.post-49042872299579838132008-03-11T19:44:00.000-07:002008-03-11T19:44:00.000-07:00Don't get me wrong... I'm sure the idea works... i...Don't get me wrong... I'm sure the idea works... it's simple and hard for most I would think not to give up their shoes due to the peer pressure. I'm all for practical ways to help those in need. <BR/><BR/>FYI - The mission is always in need of those types of types of donations. Razors and underware are often needed and often in short supply.Cris Aguilarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10950908651660523514noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4816732093186928774.post-53108558115694323642008-03-11T19:17:00.000-07:002008-03-11T19:17:00.000-07:00Ouch! Don't know that the name calling is necessar...Ouch! Don't know that the name calling is necessary. Erwin is just trying to show some compassion. In the 50's churches would donate used tea bags to send to overseas missionaries...who cares who came up with the idea. Donating used anything is a bad idea.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4816732093186928774.post-37391855938223349062008-03-11T19:15:00.000-07:002008-03-11T19:15:00.000-07:00Did he say it was his idea? If he used the idea w...Did he say it was his idea? If he used the idea without giving credit... well.. thats one thing... but if he says it was his idea then that is another matter.Cris Aguilarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10950908651660523514noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4816732093186928774.post-17487664705851965682008-03-11T17:57:00.000-07:002008-03-11T17:57:00.000-07:00Hey Chris & Eddie,Did you know this past Sunday Ma...Hey Chris & Eddie,<BR/><BR/>Did you know this past Sunday March 9, 2008, at Mosaic Pasadena, Erwin M. made a pitch for the congregation to show their willingness to help the poor and the disadvantaged by donating their shoes at the front of the auditorium ?? <BR/><BR/>Erwin M., a master actor and stage performer, took off his shoes first and then asked people to come up front to him and take off their shoes also,<BR/>to donate to the Los Angeles Union Rescue Mission.<BR/><BR/>Little do people know at Mosaic that Erwin M. stole this "shoe donation" idea to the Union Rescue Mission from a 2006 Biola University graduate. See attached March 2008 story from a Christian newspaper<BR/>that reports on the recent 100th Anniversary of Biola University and that 2006 Biola graduate who came up with the original idea to have a shoe drive at BIOLA to celebrate BIOLA's anniversary and committment to the Union Rescue Mission which was founded by a Biola graduate.<BR/><BR/>Erwin M. appears to be a cheap rip-off artist of other people's ideas. He copy-catted the Church of Scientology's personality profile test as a marketing device.<BR/>Now he rips off the idea of a shoe drive from BIOLA UNIVERSITY as his own idea. Erwin takes marketing ideas from evil CULTS like the CHURCH of SCIENTOLOGY and then he rips off charitable drive ideas from Christian universities like BIOLA.<BR/><BR/>This man is a New Age Charlatan. He is like a Vaudeville performer or a Gambling website promoter that markets false and evil goods. He is selling snake oil telling people it is a cure-all tonic for all illnesses.<BR/><BR/>http://www.christianexaminer.com/Regions/OC_briefs.htmlAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4816732093186928774.post-45754956753852833102008-03-11T09:23:00.000-07:002008-03-11T09:23:00.000-07:00My imagination runs wild at the possibility that p...My imagination runs wild at the possibility that people would know us as the place and the community where everyone matters."<BR/><BR/><BR/>Message to Erwin. They know, They know. They all know about your willingness to restore people and make things right with people. They know all about you...They knowAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4816732093186928774.post-43773194851279667562008-03-11T06:06:00.000-07:002008-03-11T06:06:00.000-07:00"My imagination runs wild at the possibility that ...<I>"My imagination runs wild at the possibility that people would know us as the place and the community where everyone matters."</I><BR/><BR/>Maybe he means the attender/member and their tithe matters, but their questions and/or concerns do not. Especially if those have to do with him or how he leads.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4816732093186928774.post-79960692094802921482008-03-10T21:12:00.000-07:002008-03-10T21:12:00.000-07:00"My imagination runs wild at the possibility that ..."My imagination runs wild at the possibility that people would know us as the place and the community where everyone matters."<BR/><BR/><BR/>Maybe he means that everyone is accepted at Mosaic. Although the people at MOP don't matter. Maybe he means from now on everyone matters. Starting now.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4816732093186928774.post-54166813594901825702008-03-10T14:54:00.000-07:002008-03-10T14:54:00.000-07:00"My imagination runs wild at the possibility that ..."My imagination runs wild at the possibility that people would know us as the place and the community where everyone matters."<BR/><BR/><BR/>Annonymous,<BR/>What does this mean? I don't understand? MHAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4816732093186928774.post-86612387295456496402008-03-10T13:31:00.000-07:002008-03-10T13:31:00.000-07:00Here's an interesting quote you might find interes...Here's an interesting quote you might find interesting from Erwin's recent sermon "Every[One]: Everyone Mattered" on March 2, 2008:<BR/><BR/>"My imagination runs wild at the possibility that people would know us as the place and the community where <I>everyone matters.</I>"Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4816732093186928774.post-85344468046331904292008-03-05T22:32:00.000-08:002008-03-05T22:32:00.000-08:00Is not Easter, Palm Sunday, etc.., more about not ...Is not Easter, Palm Sunday, etc.., more about not giving into the ruling class, taking one's road to the cross?<BR/><BR/>Yes our bunnies and eggs have made it seem more like a feel good time...but speaking out for the sacrifice of Christ, in the midst of the masses that want to follow the convenient norm, is more of what Easter is really about.<BR/><BR/>"I came not to bring <I>peace</I> but a sword." <BR/>- Jesus -Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com