Thursday, June 21, 2007

Mop Comments (Page 6)

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193 comments:

Yvonne W. said...

Oops!

I need to make a correction to my last post. It was the Apostle Paul who corrected Peter, not the other way around. Sorry about that, I was doing a lot of cut and pasting and must have got the names mixed up.

Sorry for the goof.

Yvonne

Darth Vadar said...

Yvonne,
In your response to your letter…….I have changed the original to all caps to distinguish my writing and the original.

“COULD YOU EXPLAIN TO ME WHAT YOUR POINT IS ABOUT THIS SCRIPTURE? I HAPPEN TO AGREE WITH DAVID'S ACTIONS SO I DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU'RE TRYING TO SAY. IT WAS WRONG TO "KILL" SAUL.

"KILLING" IS WRONG. NOBODY HERE IS EVEN THINKING OF "KILLING" ANYONE, WE'RE JUST AIRING OUR LEGITIMATE GRIEVNACES AGAINST A LEADERSHIP GROUP FOR THE OFFENSES THAT LEADERSHIP HAS COMMITTED. THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT.”

Maybe I gave you a bad example. I’m sorry. My point had nothing to do with ‘killing”. My point was I saw that David had more “love” for the sinful King Saul then “passion” to see the leadership of King Saul be removed. As it states in 2 samuel 1: 11-12 that David mourned, wept, and fasted after Saul died. Now that’s a lot of love. I feel that MOP has more “passion” to remove the pastor and leaders, then “love” for them. However, I could be wrong; maybe you guys love them dearly.


”HAVE YOU CONSIDERED WHAT HAPPENED BETWEEN THE APOSTLE PAUL AND THE APOSTLE PETER IN GALATIANS 2:11-14?
NOT ONLY DID PETER ADMONISH PAUL FOR HIS WRONG ACTIONS BUT HE DID SO BOTH "TO HIS FACE" AND "IN THE PRESENCE OF ALL." I ASK YOU, IF THE APOSTLE PETER WAS NOT ABOVE BEING HELD ACCOUNTABLE BY ANOTHER LEADER, THAN WHY IS IT WRONG TO EXPECT SUCH ACCOUNTABILITY FROM THE LEADERSHIP OF MOSAIC?”

I could be wrong again, but I see this verse as a rebuke only in front of other Christians. When I look 1 timothy 5:20 it states that “Those who sin are to be rebuked publicly, so that the others may take warning.” I feel that this verse is saying publicly in church only, after all I don’t see why we would be warning non-Christians.

Also, please don’t forget that if your accusations are true, I support your mission of repentance, resignation, and restitution of the leadership of Mosaic. I just don’t support your method of posting it on the whole wide world.

”DV, YOUR "IDENTITY" IS NOT IMPORTANT TO ME. I KNOW IT MUST BE IMPORTANT TO YOU HOWEVER OR ELSE YOU WOULDN'T HAVE MENTIONED IT AGAIN. IT IS MY PERSONAL BELIEF THAT IF I'M GOING TO MAKE A STRONG STATEMENT, I'M GOING TO "OWN" THAT STATEMENT (TAKE PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY FOR MY WORDS) AND SIGN MY NAME TO IT. WHY? BECAUSE THIS WAY I AM HOLDING MYSELF UP TO THE ACCOUNTABILITY OF ALL THOSE WHO READ MY WORDS. THINK ABOUT IT, IF YOU KNEW YOUR WORDS MIGHT ONE DAY SHOW UP ON THE FRONT PAGE OF THE LOS ANGELES TIMES, WOULDN'T YOU BE A WHOLE LOT MORE CAREFUL ABOUT WHAT YOU WRITE?

ALSO, AND THIS IS JUST MY OPINION, I CAN'T HELP BUT FEEL SUSPICIOUS OF PEOPLE WHO POST ANONYMOUSLY. I MEAN, IF A PERSON FEELS SO STRONGLY ABOUT AN ISSUE THAT THEY ARE COMPELLED TO RESPOND, THEN WHY DOES THAT PERSON TAKE THE PRECAUTION OF POSTING "ANONYMOUSLY?" I CAN'T HELP BUT THINK IT'S AN EFFORT TO AVOID THE POSSIBILITY OF BEING HELD LEGALLY ACCOUNTABLE FOR THEIR WORDS, MORE LIKE A "DRIVE BY" TIRADE INTENDED TO HURT THE FEELINGS OF THE INTENDED TARGET RATHER AN ATTEMPT AT LEGITIMATE DEBATE.”

Did you acknowledge that there are postings that are obviously ‘supporting’ MOP that are posted anonymously? However, to reply to your comment….I don’t even know why I’m posting anonymously. Maybe because I’m not as brave as you. Maybe because I’m embarrassed that I’m a Christian, and Christians are arguing and debating on the internet. Maybe because I feel like a hypocrite and attend Mosaic, but don’t agree with the leadership. Or maybe I’m just stupid. Anyway, I’m not anonymous anymore, I’m Darth Vadar.

”DV, I HAVE WRITTEN ABOUT THE FINANCIAL "IRREGULARITIES" GOING ON WITH AWAKEN. SINCE THESE ISSUES INVOLVE INDEPENDENT CHARITIES OUTSIDE THE AUTHORITY OF "THE CHURCH" (FOR EXAMPLE THE LOS ANGELES MISSION AND NEO UNDERGROUND RAILROAD) I FEEL IT IS HIGHLY APPROPRIATE TO HOLD THESE ISSUES UP TO PUBLIC SCRUTINY. EVEN THE ISSUES INVOLVING THE ABUSE OF DOCTRINE AND AUTHORITY SHOULD BE MADE PUBLIC BECAUSE THESE ISSUES AFFECT MORE THAN JUST THOSE WHO ARE CURRENTLY ATTENDING MOSAIC.”

As I stated originally, as long as the donations were used for ministry and not for personal gain, I’m okay about it. It doesn’t mean what they are doing is right, and they really should correct it. It’s just means that it doesn’t bother me. Now if I find out that Mosaic is using the money for personal gain then I’ll be parking my car in front of Mosaic with the big sign that says, “mosaicofpain.com”. And to make sure people see the sign, I’ll be standing next to my car wearing a Darth Vadar custom, and protecting my car with a light saber. I would also need two volunteers to stand next to me that can resemble princess Lei and queen Padme? I still don’t know who’s prettier, Lei or Padme.

”DV, YOUR LAST PARAGRAPH REGARDING "REVEALING YOUR IDENTITY" TO ME ALMOST SOUNDS LIKE A THREAT. I'VE SEEN STAR WARS MANY TIMES AND I REMEMBER THAT THE SCENE WHERE DARTH VADER REVEALS HIMSELF TO LUKE IS NOT EXACTLY A PLEASANT EXPERIENCE FOR LUKE. AS FOR ME, MY TRUST IS IN THE LORD JESUS CHRIST.”

I’m sorry. It wasn’t my intention. Sometimes my analogies are way off. Trust me on this one, I’m not your enemy, I’m on your side. Also, didn’t Darth Vadar die? I think I will die after this letter and let your guys continue on your mission. But please reconsider on keeping it in the church, and not for the whole wide world. I still stay if you make enough "noise" about it to the church attendees; the leadership has to address it to the congregation.

”FOR THE RECORD: MY FATHER HAS NEVER DESIRED TO BE THE LEAD PASTOR OF THE CHURCH ON BRADY OR MOSAIC. NEVER.”

I must be really bad at explaining my opinions. To be blunt, my point was I have more respect for your Dad then I do for Erwin.

If the humor in this posting offends people anybody, I want to say “sorry”. The humor was NOT meant to mock anybody. It was meant to show that Christians can agree to disagree, and still love each other.

Darth Vadar

Darth Vadar said...

To the Anonymous person who wrote on June 21, 2007 6:34 PM….. here is my reply….

“THREE STRIKES AND YOU MIGHT BE OUT. YOU WROTE: "MY PERSONAL CHRISTIAN BACKGROUND INCLUDING SEEING A PASTOR THAT TURNED THE CONGREGATION INTO AN OCCULT[SIC], A PASTOR WHO COMMITTED ADULTERY, AND A PASTOR WHO WAS CHARGED WITH RAPE. SO WHEN I ORIGINALLY WROTE “NONE OF THIS BOTHERS ME” IT’S BECAUSE I’VE SEEN SO MUCH IN MY LIFETIME."

MAYBE SOME OF THAT COULD HAVE BEEN STOPPED IF THERE WAS A MOP CALLING ATTENTION TO THOSE WARNING SIGNS THAT WERE OBVIOUSLY IGNORED?”

It kind of ironic that you wrote that. The pastor at the church that turned occult was warned many times that there was something wrong with their teaching. They ignored the warnings and effectually was published in a Christian book. The members were kidnapped out from hired Christians and de-brainwashed. The last thing I heard was the leaders of that church admitted their sins and are still Christians.

The pastor that committed adultery had the exact same personality as what MOP describes Erwin as. However, Erwin is way more talented in speaking and writing.

Darth Vadar

Yvonne W. said...

DV,

You wrote:

My point was I saw that David had more “love” for the sinful King Saul then “passion” to see the leadership of King Saul be removed.

You're right that David had a lot of love for King Saul but David's relationship with Saul is still a poor example to use as a comparison with what MOP is trying to do. Let me explain:

King Saul disobeyed God and as a result he was rejected by God as king over Israel. 1 Samuel, chapter 15 and 1 Samuel 16:1

God told the prophet Samuel to anoint a new king. 1 Samuel 16:1

God chose David as the new king of Israel and instructed Samuel to anoint him. 1 Samuel 16: 12 -13

In this story, David knew he already had God's blessing and approval to become the next king of Israel. He had confidence in the Lord that what had been promised to him would come to pass. David also had respect for the sacredness of God's anointing so he didn't think it was right to take matters into his own hands by killing Saul, he trusted that God would take care of this.

Saul was not a nice person and tried to kill David on numerous occasions. David was hiding from the wrath of king Saul when he was presented with an opportunity to kill him and he chose not to do so.

David didn't need any "passion" to see King Saul removed from office, all David needed was "patience." In this story, the ending had already been written long before it was actually played out.


DV, this is not the case with MOP and the leadership of Mosaic. There has never been any threats of physical violence made by either MOP or Mosaic. What is being disputed here are issues dealing with the proper stewardship of leaders over the church, NOT a kingship. I can only speak for myself when I say that I do love the people in leadership at Mosaic, it is this love that has motivated me to warn them about the things that appear to be wrong with their ministry.
I was hoping that someone there at Mosaic would take responsibility for these irregularites and be humble enough to admit there was a problem that needed fixing. So far though, that has not been the case.

1 Timothy 3:1-7 has this to say about the office of overseer [pastor]: (NASB)

It is a trustworthy statement: if any man aspires to the office of overseer, it is a fine work he desires to do. An overseer, then, must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, temperate, prudent, respectable, hosptitable, able to teach, not addicted to wine or pugnacicous, but gentle, peaceable, free from the love of money. He must be one who manages his own household well, keeping his children under control with all dignity (but if a man does not know how to manage his own household, how will he take care of the church of God?), and not a new convert, so that he will not become conceited and fall into the condemnation incurred by the devil. And he must have a good reputation with those outside the church, so that he will not fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.


DV, many former leaders of Mosaic have come forward here to voice their concerns and complaints regarding the current leadership of Mosaic. They have come here because their privately voiced concerns and complaints were either ignored or dismissed, in some cases, a leader was actually subjected to reprisals for speaking out. None of these leaders were given an opportunity to speak publically, "so that others may take warning," at Mosaic. I'm sure if they had tried to stand up during a service at Mosaic, these people would have been thrown out or had the police called to escort them out.

Remember, someone in leadership at Mosaic called the police to file a report against Robbie Sortino's family for the first MOP website. Following proper police procedure, the police had to respond to this report by visiting the Sortino's home but found no evidence to support the complaint. Why would someone in leadership at Mosaic do this? I can only speculate that it was an attempt to intimidate a critic into silence.

This is why MOP exists in a "public forum." There is no "private-church only" place for it to exist.

As to warning non-christians, that seems pretty obvious to me. I wouldn't recommend Mosaic to my non-christian friends.

Regarding "anonymous" posts:

I qualified my remarks about anonymous posts by saying that it was my personal belief that if I'm going to make a strong statement, I'm going to "own" that statement.

Yes there are a lot of anonymous posts that support MOP, there are a lot of anonymous posts that don't support MOP but in the majority of cases, those that contain "strong statments" in support of MOP have come from former leaders willing to put their reputations on the line by signing their names while the majority of the "strong statements" made against MOP come from people who post anonymously. I find that very interesting.

I'm pleased that you have decided to use a screen name Darth Vader, but this is still just a screen name, it helps to distinquish your posts from the other "anonymous" posters, however; it is still not your real identity.

DV, I sense you are sincere about your own wrestlings with these issues, I hope you will continue to examine these things for yourself and keep an open mind about them.


Yvonne

Anonymous said...

DV,
I appreciate your candor and humor. We welcome the post from current Mosaic members. I'm just amazed at the amount of people who question their practices and still attend. Glutton for punishment. MH

Anonymous said...

DV

You are forgetting one small detail in your analogy about Paul chastising Peter...

"I could be wrong again, but I see this verse as a rebuke only in front of other Christians. When I look 1 timothy 5:20 it states that “Those who sin are to be rebuked publicly, so that the others may take warning.” I feel that this verse is saying publicly in church only, after all I don’t see why we would be warning non-Christians.

Also, please don’t forget that if your accusations are true, I support your mission of repentance, resignation, and restitution of the leadership of Mosaic. I just don’t support your method of posting it on the whole wide world."


After confronting Peter to his face and brining it to the Church, Paul then turned around and put it in writing for the entire world to see in the greatest selling book of all time.

MOP is following a biblical model.

EM

Anonymous said...

I am looking for an alternative to Mosaic. Does anyone have an opinion of:
1) The Dreamcenter (Angelus Temple)
2) The Oasis Christian Center (on Wilshire)
3) Ecclesia (in Hollywood)
4) Hollywood Presbyterian

I am looking for a good evalgelistic, biblical church in central/west LA. thanks

Kat

MOPmember said...

Kat,

Sorry but this site is not about promoting an exodus from Mosaic. More important is that those of you, who are feeling like things are not "right" there at Mosaic, should stand up and speak out.

It is not the purpose of MOP to be a web site to recommend alternatives to Mosaic.

Anonymous said...

Hey MOP Member, do you attend Mosaic? If not then maybe you should if you feel like you have to be an insider to make a change. As I stated in a previous post, I did bring up concerns and the conclusion was that Mosaic was not the church for me. There were plenty of churches that could "fill my need" as quoted by leadership. If this post is about "healthy" community, I see no reason why people cannot recommend other churches. I don't want to go someplace and find out 6 months later that they have some wacky theology or practices. If everyone here is a current or former member of Mosaic, is it wrong to still help someone you once called your sis?

MOPmember said...

Kat,

Your question is a fair one, it just isn't what this site is about. One persons "healthy" church is another's "bad" church. Yes, we believe that when pointing out a problem there should be a solution offered, that is found on MOP in the mission statement. I attended Mosaic for too many years and I have personally attended three of the four groups you asked about and could give you my personal opinion of them, but that is not what we are looking to do here. MOP is about calling attention to the abuses at Mosaic. The hope would be if enough current members questioned those abuses then they might stop.

Anonymous said...

i'm "glad" you former M and COB people have left the baptist tradition. it used to be "back in the day" we thought of our pastors as the "Lord's anointed". and while erwin may have faults, even ugly ones, he is the "Lord's anointed" pastor for M. it is here that i submit for your consideration the account of david and saul. no doubt many of you here and at the MOP site see great similarities with erwin and saul. ego-driven, dictator/king, running off of what is good ... these are some of the themes you have spoken of. you may recall david in 1 sam. 24.6? samuel had already anointed david, and david was told his enemy would be handed over to him. david would be king. saul was on his way out (at least according to God through samuel). david had the chance to play out God's plan in the cave and kill saul. (maybe some of you would like to fire erwin's butt and get on with it ... i sense this is your desire from your writings) anyway, please recall david's words, "the Lord forbid that I should do such a thing to my master, the Lord's annointed, or lift my hand against him; for he is anointed of the Lord." maybe erwin is evil, even as evil as saul (hard to imagine) ... but maybe we (and by we i mean you) should relax, have a pickle and not lift a hand (or key stroke) against the Lord's anointed. -gw

ps will you publish this? i wonder

MOPmember said...

Very interesting how every one of the "I wonder if you will publish this?" peeps never come back and say, "Wow, you guys are wanting to hear from all sides, you published it!" lol

Actually, probably the Saul comparison is a bit more in parallel with how so many of Erwin's people know he has problems, but prefer to sweep it all under the carpet and move on. Much like the above Anonymous poster.

By the way, Saul was NOT God's anointed, David was...Paul was a concession because God's people wanted a human King.

Anonymous said...

Sorry, gw, but how did you come up with the ide that former M and COB members had left the baptist tradition? It seems to me that it was the current pastor of Mosaic that ridiculed the fact that COB was originally and officially "The First Southern Baptist Church of East Los Angeles" or something like tht. Just because a man is pastor of a church does not mean that he is the Lord's "anointed". I believe David was referring to a king, not a pastor (although sometimes I think pastors think they are kings). Additionally, even King Saul and King David were "called on the carpet" by God's prophets. Pastors, just like kings, should be told when they may be in the wrong and be given an opportunity to repent and change their ways. I think gw believes that pastors are kings. Be careful, that's how cults get started.

Yvonne W. said...

"Anonymous",

I already answered you back you at Ruben's Reviews.

For future reference, what you did here (Copying your comment from one site and reposting it on another: or "double posting") is regarded as poor internet etiquette.

Yvonne W.

Anonymous said...

gw,
I guess cris let your post go through. Who said Erwin was evil. Annointed...I guess there is no accountability for the Annointed...And GW, I know Erwin and he's no David. Sounds like another volunteer staff member who has eaten just a little too many pickles. Come on-you could do better than that!

Anonymous said...

yes yvonne, it is poor internet etiquette. i give you my word (if its worth anything to you) that i did NOT double post. someone else did that, i respect you more than you know. i would not do that.

Anonymous said...

Hey everyone, I finally read Ron Foster's article. He's got a second one now. He writes for Christian Worldview Network. Very insightful articles. Here's the link for the second one if anyone's interested. I think people should leave lots of feedback in the feedback section 'cuz he got some flak for that last article.

http://www.christianworldviewnetwork.com/article.php/2198/Ron_Foster

Godspeed,
BJ

Yvonne W. said...

BJ,

Which article are you referring to?

Are you referring to this article:

Erwin McManus’ Real Position on the Authority of Scripture
By Ron Foster
http://www.christianworldviewnetwork.com/article.php/2198/Ron_Foster

When I read the above article at 7:47 this morning there were no comments attached to it.

There was another (bogus) article that was attributed to Ron Foster called:

"Brain Teasers Needed"
http://www.christianworldviewnetwork.com/article.php/2200/Ron_Foster

(In the comment section attached to this article Ron says he didn't write it.)

The second article is rather silly and doesn't sound like Ron at all.

Yvonne

Anonymous said...

This, from the Mosaic.org website. A guy named Nathan writes "Would you please help me with something, I have been looking over your websites and I can’t find a way to e-mail Erwin McManus. I have some questions that only he can answer. If that is not possible then would you please just inform me. Thanks! :)"

Eric Bryant writes: "Nathan, you can email alisah@mosaic.org to contact Erwin."

No, Eric, I dont think Nathan was interested in contacting Alisah. You would think at this point Erwin would be a little more gracious and humble about receiving questions, since there has been so much concern regarding Awaken, Believing the Impossible and the bizarre retirement "party." Some things just never change.

Anonymous said...

Its Circle the Wagons time.

Anonymous said...

Its Circle the Wagons time.

Anonymous said...

Its "Circle the Wagons" time.

Anonymous said...

Wikepedia states this about Erwin--
"His work is featured in numerous films..." Can someone share with me the names of two films that Erwin is in. Or is this a staff member fluffing up the old resume? I'm desperate...how about one film.

Anonymous said...

Hey gang,

Yvonne, yeah that was the article I was talking about - Erwin's Position on the Authority of Scripture."

Did anyone hear Eric Bryant's sermon called "Uncivil War." He is really bashing you guys and I think that Ken Silva guy (www.apprising.org). Eric does a "brainwashing" sermon on how you shouldn't believe everything on the internet. But he never defends what Erwin says with the Bible. Maybe he doesn't believe in the Bible??? Hmmm??? Then he says we all need to put aside our differences. Check this out, he uses Paul and Barnabas as an example. "Paul didn't say, 'Don't listen to Barnabas'", and vice versa. But Paul and Barnabas had had a small argument over taking Mark with them. That's was a small matter they just couldn't come to agreement on, not a big theology disagreement. Eric must have forgotten about Galatians 1:8 where Paul says that if anyone preaches a different gospel, let him be accursed or Romans 16:17 where Paul tells them to AVOID people who teach false teaching. That must have slipped Eric's mind. I just love how Mosaic teachers can take a scripture here or there that supports what they are trying to teach but forget all the others that oppose it.

Anyway, I'm gonna get off my soapbox for now.

Peace,
BJ

Yvonne W. said...

Ron Foster has written another article on Erwin McManus entitled:
Erwin McManus' False Teachings.

It can be found at Apprising Ministries:
http://www.apprising.org/archives/2007/07/erwin_mcmanusa_1.html

I found the commentary on "clones" very interesting since that is exactly the term I've been using to describe the "Mosaic Alliance" while conducting my own research.

Yvonne W.

Anonymous said...

Take a look at this article posted at Lighthouse: http://lighthousetrailsresearch.com/blog/index.php

"Emerging Church Leaders Say, Don't Criticize Us"---Why can't we all get along? Maybe because some of us are Emerging! Hey - See you in the Mystic--MOP Member

Anonymous said...

Cris,
Could Mosaic be considered a cult? Ron's article is scathing. What is MOP's position?
Just Curious

Anonymous said...

Read Erwin's article entitled "Emergent Angle." Erwin's attempt to distance himself from being emergent. He does leave us with this gem. "There is a new church coming. There is a new movement erupting. There is a new future being created. We call it a mosaic future." And that folks is not emergent, because Erwin said so.

http://mosaicalliance.com/leadership/angle

Anonymous said...

Now you did it--Wikepedia just took out criticism for Erwin McManus. How dare you criticize the annointed. I think even Pres. Bush gets criticized, but don't mess with the McManus. Ask Robbie, David, Ypez, Gerardo, Robert, Carol, Bro. Tom and the list goes on. He's watching you.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous

You mentioned Gerardo. What happened to Gerardo Marti? I thought it was a friendly break. Afterall, he wrote his whole thesis on Mosaic and even published a book.

Anonymous said...

"Now you did it--Wikepedia just took out criticism for Erwin McManus."

If you had that much dirty laundry would you want it aired in public?

BTW...it is back up! ;)

Anonymous said...

1st break-up not so nice-very ugly. But your absolutely right, Gerardo has moved on.

Anonymous said...

I guess the others he axed or dismissed had it coming, because how could Erwin do anything maliciously? Just a Thought

Anonymous said...

Matthew 5:23,24
"Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar [attending church] and there remember that your brother has something against you [MOP], 24leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to your brother; then come and offer your gift."

Shame on you Mosaic.

Anonymous said...

Yes, shame on you Mosaic. First, Erwin; second the leaders; third the members. Your foundation is built upon injustice and abuses.

em

Anonymous said...

I just read Ron Foster's latest on Erwin's false teaching. Ouch! Very well done Ron. You paint quite a picture. I have been reluctant up till now to view Erwin and Mosaic as anything other than "just a bit off", but after reading your piece, I must say that the idea that Mosaic is a cult is much more possible to me now. I guess Frank Loiza identified it early on when he told Erwin he felt that Mosaic was focusing too much on evangelizim and not enough on discipleship. Erwin will be held accountable for not preaching the full Gospel at some point. I just hope it is on this side of eternity so that he may yet have time to seek God humbly.

Yvonne W. said...

Everyone,

Ron Foster has posted his letter response to an email from a sister at Mosaic.

You can find it at Apprising Ministries or by following this link:

http://www.apprising.org/archives/2007/07/a_letter_to_a_s.html


Yvonne W.

Anonymous said...

Ron's response was full of love and obvious concern for his "sister" and the church. I believe some at Mosaic, including Erwin believe the criticism Erwin has received is personal. Like Ron most of us feel that this is just bigger than Mosaic, but the church as a whole is being affected by the false teachings taught at Mosaic, and to be fair those under other guru emergent leaders like Rob Bell, Brian McLaren and Tony Jones. We are called to speak up and I know that upsets some friends at Mosaic, but my prayers are that most of you will see this clearer in the near future. God Bless---JA

Anonymous said...

The Church Report has just released its 50 most influential churches. Mosaic #11, Mars Hills #12. And so mop continues...

http://lighthousetrailsresearch.com/blog/index.php

Anonymous said...

In Ron Foster’s recent article, “A LETTER TO A SISTER IN CHRIST AT MOSAIC” He states that he has nothing against Erwin McManus. Ron writes that he has not been hurt by him nor does Mr. Foster have hard feelings towards Mr. McManus. “I am not writing because of personal bitterness towards Erwin. I have no ill-will or bad feelings toward him. He has done me no wrong.” Quoted from Ron’s article.

I do not know Ron Foster, but I have no reason to doubt his personal comments. He goes on to list why he believes that Erwin’s teachings are errant; he does a good job of it, too. Because of Ron’s making it a point to be clear, that his purpose for publicly addressing his concerns about McManus’ teachings was not due to any hurt, this clarified something for me. MOP, is one side of the coin. Mostly, (of course there is the occasional “anonymous” poster taking a shot at Mosaic or McManus) but for the most part, MOP is a place where the “fruits” of McManus’ teachings can be brought into the light.

There is no official “Mosaic of Pain” collective. There are no meetings, nor a leader, or a specific agenda. Yes, Chris A. runs the web page (someone has to, thanks Chris), but MOP is much bigger than some web site. It is a large number of individuals who have been abused, deceived and/or treated less than any Christian should be treated by another, especially by a leader, let alone a Pastor. “Mosaic of Pain” is called that to illustrate that there is a rather large number of brothers and sisters that have been abused by a church called, Mosaic.

Personally, I do not understand all of the “teaching” and “doctrinal” issues - probably never will – just not that kind of believer. What I do know is that “they will know us by our love for one another.” We must never allow leaders within our community (Christianity) to put themselves before the care of the flock. Nor, should we accept anything less than sacrificial love from our leaders. “As the leaders goes, so goes the group.” Think of Jesus’ example of sacrificial love and how he lead his disciples to think of others first.

Ironically, I do not know anyone that has personal bitterness or ill will towards Erwin McManus, God is quite good at healing that type of thing. However, I do know a number of brothers and sisters that are deeply concerned, based on personal experience, that no one else need experience what they have gone through. “Love covers a multitude of sins.” – “Time heals all wounds.” – etc..., Yet, it is Truth that compels us to not hide what has happened personally to us, so that the abuses can stop.

Your brother in Christ,

Eddie Marshall

Anonymous said...

For I have not hesitated to proclaim to you the whole will of God. Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood. I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock. Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them. So be on your guard! Remember that for three years I never stopped warning each of you night and day with tears.

- Paul of Tarsus -
Acts 20:27-31

Anonymous said...

It's quite telling that I have read and contemplated more scripture in the last few weeks of this blog than I can ever remember Erwin preaching in my many years at Mosaic.

Thanks Ron

Anonymous said...

This is a revealing article on the Barbarian Way. Take a look at the story regarding the tug of war. When you have a charismatic leader - you just sometimes can't help but drink the kool-aid.

http://www.theothersideoftheriver.com/Articles/Hordes.shtml

Cris Aguilar said...

-------- ADMINISTRATIVE NOTE -----------

Some may have noticed in the last 2 weeks their posts have taken longer (2 or 3 days) than the typical norm (a few hours at most). I had a slight issue with my email and didn't realize it until now and therefore would skip a post or two here and there. This was unintentional and I believe I corrected the problem.

Thanks for your patience.

Cris

Anonymous said...

New article on "Soul Cravings". Do you get the feeling we're not the only one who figured this guy out?

http://www.9marks.org/partner/Article_Display_Page/0,,PTID314526%7CCHID598014%7CCIID2341570,00.html

Cris Aguilar said...

I agree. This is a very good article. Take some time to read this.

Soul Cravings: An Exploration of the Human Spirit (Reviewed by Jonathan Leeman)

Anonymous said...

Take a gander at Erwin's July 15th podcasgt message. He clumsly explains why he uses the word "mystic" throughout his books. I guess its refreshing to know that Dave Auda discourage him, but you know Erwin, he knows best, he did it anyway, just to spite "those" Christians (He begins at minute 6:30, for those who struggle in listening to the whole thing)

http://www.mosaic.org/podcast/

Anonymous said...

Here is a telling excerpt from the above article:

"Mr. McManus, I’m still waiting for someone with all your creative gifts of communication, cultural sensitivity, love for non-Christians, and joy in your salvation to write a book for non-Christians that gets the gospel right. Will you?"

Anonymous said...

Dr. Garry E. Gilley has posted a review of "Soul Cravings." Take a look at the link below.

http://www.svchapel.org/Resources/BookReviews/book_reviews.asp?ID=343

Anonymous said...

"“Explore nowhere else except deep within yourself…you will come face-to-face with God.”

Erwin Mcmanus - Soul Cravings

Anonymous said...

Question??
Erwin is a cultural architect, right? If you visit Mosaic you'll see dancing, music, drama, paintings, etc. Erwin has shared that he wants to change culture, ok. But his church looks a lot like the world. Who's influencing who?
John 17:14-16
I have given them Thy word; and the world has hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the worl.
I do not ask Thee to take them out of the world, even as I am not of the worl.
Sanctify them in the truth; Thy word is truth.

Anonymous said...

The world does it better...

Anonymous said...

I agree with Erwin:
"Great leaders are great storytellers, and they make sure that the great story is central in shaping the ethos of the community." He's a great storyteller. He tells some whoppers. MH

http://erwinmcmanus.com/thespeaker

Anonymous said...

M.O.P.

R.I.P.

Yvonne W. said...

Anonymous said...
M.O.P.

R.I.P.

August 3, 2007 7:27 PM



Do not mistake silence for death.

YW

Anonymous said...

Yvonne,
I guess as long as there are Erwin's misleading and abusing the flock there will always be a MOP. Also, MOP owns erwin's name--look at wikepedia. Its just hilarious. R.I.P -Hilarious! The secret is out.

Anonymous said...

All you Tartuffe lovers out there, take a look at Ruben's new article. My question is this, why doesn't Ruben write a book, he's obviously got the talent. Erwin encouraged emerging leader Rob Bell to write the Velvet Elvis, I think its time to encourage Ruben to write about the Mystic Tartuffe. Whatcha Think?

Cris Aguilar said...

You can find that new article here...


Tartuffe


.

Anonymous said...

Long live MOP

Anonymous said...

http://teampyro.blogspot.com/

The first picture here says it all!

Anonymous said...

Ron Foster has a new article on Erwin at www.apprising.org. Check it out.

Anonymous said...

“Heresies have times and seasons. They bear a close relationship to the climate of opinion in the world which surrounds the church and colors and influences her thinking and teaching.”
John M. Krumm

Anonymous said...

Can someone tell me what Erwin has against John MacArthur? And anonymous thanks for the link to pyromaniacs. Another good link is;

http://www.apologeticsindex.org/306-emerging-church-web-sites

GOOD STUFF ON EMERGING -Jonathan

Anonymous said...

Can you imagine Mosaic with teachers like Tom Wolfe, Carol Davis, John Aguilar, Bruce Welch, Ruben Aguilar, Robby Sortino, Clara Welch, Eddie Marshall, Frank Loaiza, Robert Martinez, George Valdez, Steve Walker, Brian Peterson etc. etc.--Where have all the teachers gone. But they got dancing!

Anonymous said...

Ron's new article can be seen at:

http://www.apprising.org/archives/2007/08/erwin_mcmanusa_2.html

Anonymous said...

"Can you imagine Mosaic with teachers like Tom Wolfe, Carol Davis, John Aguilar, Bruce Welch, Ruben Aguilar, Robby Sortino, Clara Welch, Eddie Marshall, Frank Loaiza, Robert Martinez, George Valdez, Steve Walker, Brian Peterson etc. etc.--Where have all the teachers gone. But they got dancing!

How about, Dennis & Holly Hair, Olga Nava, Cris Aguilar, Jacob & Kim Aguilar, Viv & Ieda Grigg, Frank Ortiz, Anton Mendosa, The Wright Brothers, etc..?

Actually, no there could not be a "Mosaic" as it exists now without first disposing of many of the above.

Viva Tartuffe!

Anonymous said...

Ron Foster has series of articles he has done on Erwin McManus:

http://www.christianworldviewnetwork
.com/bio.php?AuthorID=154

Anonymous said...

"Actually, no there could not be a "Mosaic" as it exists now without first disposing of many of the above.

Is that any surprise? Read below what is proudly posted on Erwin's Wikipedia page:

McManus was employed in the late 1980s and early 1990s by the Southern Baptist Convention (Home Mission Board) to facilitate struggling churches in replacing "outdated" stagnant leadership teams with "younger" and "fresher" thinkers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erwin_mcmanus

Anonymous said...

A lot of those "teachers" that are listed above are terrible teachers. Quit romanticizing the past people! Move on! This site has a bunch of self-righteous obsessive compulsives. Pick a new topic, please! I hope you guys aren't going to be this way in heaven. Geesh!

Anonymous said...

Nice list -Wow COB/Mosaic were blessed!

Anonymous said...

I guess we shouldn't leave out teachers and other leaders in the church like: The Ybarra family, The Hoist family, The Wilson family, Enrique Monreal, The Davis Bros., Pablo and Sonia Tovar, Pramin Phatiphong, Matt and Penny Wolf, Jay and Diane Parker, Alex Yepez and our resident writer Ron Foster. Just to name a few

Anonymous said...

"I guess we shouldn't leave out teachers and other leaders in the church like: The Ybarra family, The Hoist family, The Wilson family, Enrique Monreal, The Davis Bros., Pablo and Sonia Tovar, Pramin Phatiphong, Matt and Penny Wolf, Jay and Diane Parker, Alex Yepez and our resident writer Ron Foster. Just to name a few..."

If you go by the following quote, "A lot of those "teachers" that are listed above are terrible teachers."

Then I guess all of those listed above would be lumped into "terrible" too.

I admit, I am not a great teacher. I only know that Jesus is the ultimate teacher and I choose to point people to Him, rather than some pastor.

Eddie Marshall

Anonymous said...

Hey... just a note... the teachers mentioned above, and many more not mentioned, may have left Mosaic or been pushed out BUT most have landed in local "irrelevant" churches in the LA area. I know that you can find several at Whittier Area Christian, Gateway (Alhambra), First Baptist Glendora and Lake Ave (Pasadena). Those are the ones that I know of but I am sure there are many more. Does anyone know of other churches where you can find other good teachers or other good teaching churches? I also heard Bro Thom will be at Gateway this Sunday. I for one need a place where prayer and bible teaching is high on the list of priorities for a church community to have.

MOPmember said...

A lot of those "teachers" that are listed above are terrible teachers. Quit romanticizing the past people! Move on! This site has a bunch of self-righteous obsessive compulsives. Pick a new topic, please! I hope you guys aren't going to be this way in heaven. Geesh!

Looks like a new name calling, freedom of speech hating Mosaic member is on board.

Anonymous said...

I WOULD LIKE TO PUT OUT A CHALLENGE TO THOSE OF YOU AT MOSAIC THAT THINK THAT MOP IS JUST A BUNCH OF "SELF RIGHTEOUS OBSESSIVE PEOPLE". THIS SUNDAY PASTOR THOMAS WOLF WILL BE SPEAKING AT GATEWAY COMMUNITY CHURCH. GO HEAR HIM. AFTERWARDS ASK HIM WHAT HE THINKS ABOUT HOW HE WAS TREATED BY ERWIN AND MOSAIC?

Anonymous said...

Looks like R.I.P. = REAL INTENSE PAIN

Anonymous said...

"Pick a new topic, please! I hope you guys aren't going to be this way in heaven. Geesh!"

Looks like Erwin had the MOP site just "pop up" on his computer screen again.

Anonymous said...

Some of the former teachers mentioned in a previous comments may or may not be terrible teachers but at least they were available to God to teach through them. God looks for availability more than ability. They are wonderful and Godly persons who counted God's work more important than other selfish pursuits. I'll bet the person who made those remarks has seldom if ever allowed him/her self to be used by God in teaching or discipling others. If he/she has, I wonder if he/she is "terrible" too.

Anonymous said...

Anybody ever heard of Ministry Watch (http://www.ministrywatch.com/mw2.1/H_Home.asp)? This organization investigates many ministries that have questionable financial practices. They even made it onto 20/20. Check out the website and see if this is something that might help you bring some things to light concerning our beloved Erwin and Mosaic. After all, who of us that went to Mosaic ever remembers seeing a budget, right?

Anonymous said...

"After all, who of us that went to Mosaic ever remembers seeing a budget, right?

A budget would have been nice...a building from a "building fund" would have been even nicer!

Anonymous said...

If enough concerned individuals contact "Ministry Watch" maybe they will check into things at Mosaic.

http://www.ministrywatch.com/mw2.1/H_Home.asp

Anonymous said...

"Pick a new topic, please! I hope you guys aren't going to be this way in heaven. Geesh!"

Comments like the one above makes one miss comments by the likes of Matt Shriver. I know there are others like Matt at Mosaic, please let's just dialogue.

Anonymous said...

A serious note to think about is that Erwin and his into the mystic brother "train" pastors. Now that is something to be concerned about. There will always be sites like MOP, Slice of lacedonia, Apprising ministries, Christian Research Network, From the Lighthouse and pytomsniacs around to expose the truth. I don't think any of these will just leave because they are an inconvenience to EM.

MOPmember said...

"Comments like the one above makes one miss comments by the likes of Matt Shriver. I know there are others like Matt at Mosaic, please let's just dialogue."

Oh, really? Maybe you can help by pointing out the comments that Matt made that were "dialog"?

Anonymous said...

I love that you guys think this site is valuable and contributes something for the "good". You guys like yourselves a lot! I'm so glad you all have a place you can go to stew.

Anonymous said...

I heard that Erwin kills puppies at the Mosaic services too. Let's call PETA!

Anonymous said...

Come on MOP member anything is more positive than the two comments above. Erwin's attack dogs are out again. NO pun out there intended for you Peta people.

Anonymous said...

Its funny I think MOP has done a lot of good. Erwin's a little more careful with his words. He probably won't fire someone for awhile. Maybe just maybe he'll let the congregation take a look at the finances, but maybe the congregation doesn't mind being in the dark. And the puppy thing is the least of your worries. And I'm sure those puppies had it coming. MH

Anonymous said...

"I love that you guys think this site is valuable and contributes something for the "good". You guys like yourselves a lot! I'm so glad you all have a place you can go to stew."

Probably similar to what Luther heard about the Wittenburg Door...

Anonymous said...

"I heard that Erwin kills puppies at the Mosaic services too. Let's call PETA!"

More "comments" to stimulate dialog from Mosaic people.

Anonymous said...

I like that you think this website "stimulates dialogue" and you compare what you're doing on a website to what Luther did. You kids are the bestest!

Anonymous said...

"I like that you think this website "stimulates dialogue" and you compare what you're doing on a website to what Luther did. You kids are the bestest!"

Actually, "stimulating dialog" was not a MOP comment. A quick read of the MOP Mission Statement will reveal that MOP wants action not words, or just dialog.

As for comparing MOP to Luther, NOT. Comparing the haters that love to come on here to the detractors of Luther's day, YES.

Anonymous said...

Meaty sermon today. Can I hear an Amen. Hey Bro. Tom will be around this week, if anyone, you know has a question for him. He'll be home. I don't think you'll have a problem meeting with you. And don't be frightend by the big guy with tats that lives in his home. I think he's just there for protection from the MOP haters.
P.S. Steve Walker is a gem, just an observation

Anonymous said...

If you have not read Ruben's article "Tartuffe" yet...I highly recommend it...as well the comments thread for the article has become quite revealing to the type of meeting one has when doing a meeting at Mosaic.

Anonymous said...

The link to Ruben's latest article and the comments are here:

Tartuffe

Anonymous said...

Can we please get some good takes from members at Mosaic, SiR is really becoming the norm. I believe this site is on the WWW.

Anonymous said...

"Can we please get some good takes from members at Mosaic, SiR is really becoming the norm. I believe this site is on the WWW."

The average Mosaic member does not know anything about this site. Maybe they need to be told...after all SiR Anonymous challenges us to be more pro-active.

Anonymous said...

A web page like this is disturbing. But to hear these things about Mosaic is even more troubling when there is no reply anywhere here denying them.

Please, could someone from Mosaic say it isn't so?

Anonymous said...

It isn't so.

Anonymous said...

lol--Dozens of articles, 6 Mop pages, Ruben's Reviews, Appraising Ministries, The Lighthouse, Slice of Lacedonia, ChristianWorldviewnetwork, Pyromaniacs, Ministrywatch etc. etc. Yeah its not true. No controversy here. Just dozens of people who got it all wrong. Or maybe...

Anonymous said...

At least these guys are honest about it:

"Mosaic: an emergent church"

http://www.mosaicfl.org

Anonymous said...

Is there any real purpose to all of this? What can a MOP do to change any of it?

Anonymous said...

This site has already warned Mosaic. I think its now just warning the world. Be on guard for empty phylosophy. I guess it would also be nice for Erwin to come clean. But we can only pray.

Anonymous said...

Take a look at the Origins new press release below:

http://theoriginsproject.org/pressrelease

Erwin is now being referred as a spiritual iconoclast. Bryant a Navigator. And their hope is to "unleash an apostolic ethos in the 21st century." I need some help here, can someone at Mosaic interpret? Or maybe this language is used to confuse. Just a guess...I know a lot of groups out there do this kind of thing. MH

Anonymous said...

as found on webster.com:

iconoclast
One entry found for iconoclast.

Main Entry: icon·o·clast
Pronunciation: -"klast
Function: noun
Etymology: Medieval Latin iconoclastes, from Middle Greek eikonoklastEs, literally, image destroyer, from Greek eikono- + klan to break -- more at CLAST
1 : a person who destroys religious images or opposes their veneration
2 : a person who attacks settled beliefs or institutions

Anonymous said...

wow==that be him!

Anonymous said...

Is Erwin skirting the issue or admitting they are apart of this movement? I'm confused by the following article:

http://mosaicalliance.com/leadership/emerging

Anonymous said...

"There is something new emerging.
There is a wind blowing. There is a new church coming. There is a new movement erupting. There is a new future being created. We call it a Mosaic future."
-Erwin Raphael McManus

--Someone maybe thinking of he and his movement too highly. Although I agree with the wind blowing part

Anonymous said...

By the way the new wind smells, I think it's going to rain ... feces (I mean with the "new movement erupting" and all).

MOPmember said...

"Is Erwin skirting the issue or admitting they are a part of this movement?"

Y E S . . . : /

Anonymous said...

"My grandmother taught me the name of Jesus and my grandfather taught me reincarnation. They both fit comfortably into my belief system- as did aliens, astro-projection, trans-channeling; and pretty much anything else meta-physical."

- Erwin McManus -

You'll need to go to the article to see how it all turned out:

http://mosaicalliance.com/leadership/emerging

Anonymous said...

Here are my two cents. I read on this blog that someone from another state found this site from a google search of Erwin McManus’s name. He said that he had questions about Erwin McManus and that this site answered some of his questions. Also, there was a woman from Apple Valley said that she and some members of her church had been interested in Mosaic teachings until she found this site. About two months ago I ran into an old friend of mine who said he was looking for a church for his family. I was surprised when he said that an old classmate of his who will remain nameless told him about this site. He ruled out Mosaic to raise his kids and chose another church. This is what is going on here.

Anonymous said...

"Here are my two cents."

Well there you go, then.

Anonymous said...

Yes I did that. Something about the man seemed off. After reading many of the peoples experiences here I now understand why.

Anonymous said...

Annonymous,
The truth of it is this, too many years went by and nobody said a word. Fastforward and noone can say enough. Maybe its too late. Maybe he has penetrated too many church halls. But if this site can help one congregation, then maybe its all worth it. Maybe next time someone will speak up sooner. Someone just needs to stand up. Thank you RS.

Anonymous said...

"The truth of it is this, too many years went by and nobody said a word."

Actually, pretty much everyone on here (MOP) and another 100 or so, that have not yet publicly joined the conversation, said many things to the leaders, behind closed doors. They were either asked to leave or pushed out.

The result? A MOSAIC OF PAIN

Anonymous said...

Thank you for the clarification.

Anonymous said...

Thought it odd when Pastor Erwin said in a recent sermon that he and Kim were on vacation in Scotland and drove around for two days and hadn't said a word to each other. Kim finally broke the silence by blurting out, "Is this how it's going to be from now on?!?" Then Pastor said his response was, "like what?" Kim, "not talking!" Erwin, "I'm talking to a lot of people [in my head] ie. imagining conversations with great people.

Found it odd that he hadn't talked to Kim for 2 days! I get uncomfortable if I don't talk for 2 hours or less to my wife.

Is the man an eccentric genius or a narsasistic pastor/husband?

Bibleman

Anonymous said...

Remember when Erwin took over as lead pastor? He was supposedly a "Philosophy Major" and then turns out he was Philosophy minor, and Psychology major.

I might be splitting hairs but do you think it was just a successful attempt to inflate his image as a narsassist.

Bibleman

Anonymous said...

Why doesn't Erwin give Holly Quillin the credit she deserves in her role in coauthor of his books? Most other people who have someone write their books for them put their name on the cover as co-author? Someone know the difference in this case?

Bibleman

Anonymous said...

Someone asked recently either here or on another related blog if anyone had read Peppermint Pinatas by Pastor Eric Bryant. I did pick up a copy and have started reading. Really good so far. It is taking back to the basics of being a christian, ie. love my neighbor as myself. Not all this take over the world, follow YOUR dreams and passions, mumbo jumbo.

Does Mosaic need a new lead pastor that helps us refocus on what's really important about following Christ?

Eric has my vote...and has had it for a while.

Bibleman

Anonymous said...

" Anonymous said...

Why doesn't Erwin give Holly Quillin the credit she deserves in her role in coauthor of his books? Most other people who have someone write their books for them put their name on the cover as co-author? Someone know the difference in this case?"



Bibleman,

Actually, yes there is a difference. When someone co-writes a book with another, then they usually share the credit. However, if someone has another writer write the book for them, and they take all the credit, this is usually referred to as a "Ghost Writer". And they rarely if ever mention the other writer (i.e. ghost).

This is usually due to the "N" word. Or, as mentioned in quite a FEW posts proceeding this one:

N A R C I S S I S M

Anonymous said...

Good to hear PP is a good read. I hope it blesses people. I'll have to pick up a copy. Maybe Ruben will do a review. He's a lit guy and teacher, I'm sure he'll point out the pluses.

Anonymous said...

When you turning the page chris?

Anonymous said...

Eric's a good guy. A little blinded by the annointed one, and maybe a little problem with discernment. But overall a nice guy.

Anonymous said...

Does Mosaic need a new lead pastor that helps us refocus on what's really important about following Christ?

...ahhh yes

Anonymous said...

Can someone please explain to me what Ralph Neighbor is doing at Mosaic. This guy seemed to have his head together. How about Coach Mushegan, another wise man. The other leaders mentioned before got it. Why not these two? These two have to be mopsters at heart.

MOPmember said...

"Can someone please explain to me what Ralph Neighbor is doing at Mosaic. This guy seemed to have his head together. How about Coach Mushegan, another wise man. The other leaders mentioned before got it. Why not these two? These two have to be mopsters at heart."

How about you ask them and let us know?

Anonymous said...

This guy has millions of followers (a measure that Mosaic members always say makes Erwin right). This guy HATES religion, probably more than Erwin. This guy's church raised $1.4m last year. This guy is way RELEVANT! All the young hot chicks and guys hang out with him in Miami Beach.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=22htEwXYkLU

Anonymous said...

A little more on, Jose Luis de Jesus Miranda.


http://www.youtube.com
/watch?v=07iLDTMCgWE

Anonymous said...

As much baggage as organized religion can have...here is a reason for why it is necessary!

http://www.youtube.com/
watch?v=07iLDTMCgWE

MOPmember said...

“The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane.”

– Marcus Aurelius

Anonymous said...

That Jose Luis de Jesus Miranda is a nutty character. We gotta bring back "That old time religion, cause its good enough for me."

Yvonne W. said...

To those following my reports on "Awaken", I have just published a new post on this topic at Solid Foods, http://solidfoods.blogspot.com/2007/08/shining-daylight-on-erwin-mcmanus.html

Yvonne W.

Anonymous said...

"the greatest enemy to the movement of Jesus Christ is Christianity." Erwin McManus

The above quote has been noted several times on this site and others. I know Christians who have been bad examples, but I know more that have been true followers of our Lord Jesus Christ. The time has come where Christians are being persecuted around the world. In our own country media outlets and some politicians look at us and rile insults. Every day its being accepted. You could see it coming. The signs are all around us. So my heart drops when one of our own believes that Christians are the greatest enemy to Jesus Christ. Its just such a "relevant" comment. We learn that the disciples were called Christians in Acts. Christians are those who belong to Christ, "Little Christ." What an honor. I don't deserve to be called a Christian. And I am aware who the enemy is...can't you see.
A Christian Brother

Anonymous said...

Just read Yvonne's new entry at Soul Food's. Her previous post in August are an interesting read as well. Mosaic might want to hire her on finances, she seems to know what she's doing. Just a thought.

Yvonne W. said...

Any thoughts on Erwin McManus' new article at ChurchReport.com? The title is, "Love the Context for Mission."

Here is the address:

http://www.thecronline.com/mag_article.php?mid=1108&mname=August

Yvonne

Anonymous said...

"This is the emerging angle – everything we do must always be in the context of love. Doesn’t sound that controversial … until you put it into practice." EM

I wish he would show some love to past Mosaic members. He may want to put his words into practice. And I guess he's emerging again. I'm dizzy. MH

Anonymous said...

"Jesus’ reputation was ruined because he was accused of being a friend of sinners. It was true." EM

"I hope my name is deserving of a similar smear campaign for the same reason as the one and one alone whose opinion of us really matters. Because in the end when it is all said and done they will know us by our love; and as Paul concluded all that matters is faith as it is expressed through love."

Don't worry no one's going to smear you because you love too much. You do enough damage to yourself on your own. Looks like someone is worried about his reputation. Erwin, forget about yourself and think of others first. We've heard from your staff. Why don't you speak up. Where is your voice. Stop speaking through others, and speak up. You could help a lot with the healing process. Man-up!

Anonymous said...

Yeah, Erwin showed a lot of love when he fired Robert and Yepez. Or how about the love he showed David T. when he called the police on him because of his work on MOP. Or how about when he showed love to Frank. Remember that cute story he likes to tell. Who cares if its not accurate, its cute, it gets a laugh. Or how how about how he pushed Carol out and turned on Brother Tom. Now that's a lot of love. Or how about how Robbie and his family were treated after the break up of his marriage. I guess Robbie was just too messy. Erwin stop loving so much. Maybe its easier to love people you don't know. Thanks for preaching to non-christians. The carnage of the believers you left behind speaks of your love.

Ruben said...

I’d like to offer some thoughts on Erwin’s new article. He writes: “Emerging churches are often seen as suspect because there are so many openly sinful people attending.” No, they are suspect because the teachers/preachers of such churches often give the impression that they don’t trust the certainty of the Bible. Brian McLaren, one of the chief architects of the Emerging movement, writes: “My belief is that clarity is sometimes overrated, and that shock, obscurity, playfulness, and intrigue (carefully articulated) often stimulate more thought than clarity.” And it was Erwin who famously said “I build my life not on the word of God but on the voice of God.” In this new article, Erwin goes on to write: “The modern church has been far too tolerant of sin, hypocrisy and corruption among its leaders while proclaiming judgment on the masses.” Oh, really? So when Jimmy Swaggart, Jim Bakker, and Ted Haggard were disciplined and removed from their respective boards is that considered “tolerant of sin” and “hypocrisy?” Don’t get me wrong, the Church hasn’t been perfect in dealing with sin among its leaders and there needs to be more accountability, more outreach, and more communication between leaders and laity when a pastor falls. But to say that the Church is “tolerant” of sin and corruption shows a lack of restraint and sober thought on Erwin’s part. Does he realize that when he writes such assertions he doesn’t give unbelievers more trust in the Church but instead more ammunition to attack the Church? Many unbelievers, as noted in Eric Bryant’s book Peppermint Filled Pinatas, hate Christians. In the book, he writes how there was a stand up comedian who befriended Eric but abandoned him as soon as he found out he was a Christian. Is it something that Eric did that spurred this? No. Is it something some other Christian did in the past that created this animosity? Maybe. But it also could be simple, old-fashioned hatred for God and His people. When Erwin makes his careless statements about the Church’s tolerance of corruption and hypocrisy he is unwittingly reading from the atheist/heathen/skeptic play book. There is an element of a snarling, attack-dog viciousness toward the Church today from a certain segment of the unchurched. When a Christian pastor affirms some of their arguments something is clearly and terribly wrong. There are certainly plenty of non-Christians who aren’t looking for ammunition against the Church and are even seeking God. The last thing these need is to be told they are entering a faith that is “tolerant of corruption” that “proclaims judgment on the masses,” and perhaps worst of all, “irrelevant.” Erwin further writes: “I hope my name is deserving of a similar smear campaign for the same reason as the one and one alone whose opinion of us really matters.” This “smear campaign” was brought about because many of us fear that the Church has become nearly unrecognizable from the one we see in the Bible. We don’t want a pastor that dismisses the Church so cavalierly, one who wants to “destroy Christianity,” and embraces mysticism. Something is very wrong here.

MOPmember said...

"Because in the end when it is all said and done they will know us by our love; and as Paul concluded all that matters is faith as it is expressed through love."
- Erwin McManus -


Uhhmm, a little bit left off here...sure it was an oversight.

I think Paul said, "...they will know us by our love FOR ONE ANOTHER."

Maybe just a McFreudian slip.

Gal 5:15 said...

Thoughts on thoughts here...

Ruben said:

"to say that the Church is “tolerant” of sin and corruption shows a lack of restraint and sober thought on Erwin’s part."

The leaders you mentioned, and more besides, were only disciplined after the media got ahold of what was happening. Various churches, including many in the charismatic movement, cover up their pastor's sins rather than confronting them. The Ted Haggard example is only the most recent. Their testimony harms ours. It has to stop. Shouldn't we as Christians be the first ones to say so?

"Does he realize that when he writes such assertions he doesn’t give unbelievers more trust in the Church but instead more ammunition to attack the Church?"

The ammunition is already there. A cloud of perceived hypocrisy already permeates our modern culture as it regards the church. How do we respond as Christians? Do we tell the truth as it is and serve to be part of the solution? Or do we continue to allow the Haggards, the Swaggarts, the priests, etc to live in a code of silence, and be part of the problem?

"When Erwin makes his careless statements about the Church’s tolerance of corruption and hypocrisy he is unwittingly reading from the atheist/heathen/skeptic play book."

Or, by calling it out, is he trying to take a page out of their playbook? If we as Christians stood up to hypocrisy, wouldn't that take some of the teeth out of the heathen bite?

"There is an element of a snarling, attack-dog viciousness toward the Church today from a certain segment of the unchurched. When a Christian pastor affirms some of their arguments something is clearly and terribly wrong."

Gosh, so are we saying that people who aren't churched are wrong when they say that they hate hypocrisy?

And you do realize that your website engages in exactly the same kind of "smear campaign" you deride, right? And you do realize that you're engaging in the same activity you're criticizing Erwin for, right? Except the biggest charges you guys can seem to come up with is that he wears a nice shirt.

Anonymous said...

"Erwin, forget about yourself and think of others first. We've heard from your staff. Why don't you speak up. Where is your voice. Stop speaking through others, and speak up. You could help a lot with the healing process. Man-up!"

Yes, Erwin, we've called you a liar, a thief, a heretic, an abuser, and a narcissist to your back -- now why don't you come on over so we can do it to your face! Never mind that we've distorted truth, outright lied, shouted down people from Mosaic who have tried to reach out to us, taken comments out of context, given in to bitterness and resentment, made derogatory comments about the members and leaders of your community, compared you unfavorably to old leaders (who we complained about then too), and walked away from the church 10-12 years ago yet still feel comfortable demanding that the church change to what we think it should be. But come on over and talk to us! 'Cause you know, that's all we really want to do, even though our website says we want you and the entire leadership team fired.

Anonymous said...

Annonymous,
I didn' realize this website was talking behind someone's back. Where is the distortion of truth or lies from us or even derogatory remarks. WE've documented Erwin's, can you do the same. Or are you just upset with the mirror. Now who's angry or bitter. You might want to re-read your statements before you post. MOP members left Mosaic at different times. We actually have a few in the last six months. Sadly the number is growing. So who's distorting truth. Who wants the entire leadership team fired. I think you need to go back and read the mission statement. Why do we continue to get post like this. A sorry would be a good first step. Or maybe we have to clean up our house. Or maybe let me think about these things, you guys bring up some good points. NO, We get rants. Silly. A MOP Member

Ruben said...

“The leaders you mentioned, and more besides, were only disciplined after the media got a hold of what was happening. Various churches, including many in the charismatic movement, cover up their pastor's sins rather than confronting them. The Ted Haggard example is only the most recent. Their testimony harms ours. It has to stop. Shouldn't we as Christians be the first ones to say so?”

This is a good point and I will address it: My post clearly states that the handling by the Church concerning fallen pastors isn’t perfect, that it needs more: accountability, communication, and outreach. My point wasn’t to say how wonderful the Church has been. We need to be better. In fact, I might even go one ahead of you by saying we need to be better at uprooting dangerous doctrines that have sprouted like weeds in our Church. But here is what I am not saying: the Church is “tolerant of sin and corruption.” Come on, sir, that is not a sober analysis. That is called extremism. As frustrated as I am with the Emergent movement I am not ready to say that the entire Church is corrupt and hypocritical. The moment I say that, I am in league with the likes of Christopher Hitchens, who despises the Church. I think the problem is that Erwin needs to communicate better and write with more clarity. When he makes a grand statement with finality, he needs to be specific. Who, what, where? Who specifically is “tolerant of sin” and is “corrupt”? Is there a particular church, denomination, group, or person that he has in mind? And in what ways are they corrupt and hypocritical? By not being specific, he opens himself up to critique. After all, he is part of the Church. Is his church rife with hypocrisy and corruption, too? His blanket statements invite such questions. Otherwise we have to take his word for it but that doesn’t allow any kind of serious analysis or study of the problem. It’s just becomes Erwin’s opinion. Why should we take that at face value?

This point: “Except the biggest charges you guys can seem to come up with is that he wears a nice shirt” Wow. Gal 5:50, I take you seriously and feel that you came from a good place. I still do but that last statement you made is discouraging. I’ll post a couple of claims here anyway and hope you would at least give me the benefit of the doubt that I have never EVER posted anything on the level of wardrobes or anything resembling something as superficial as that.

From Tu Ciudad Magazine:
"By his fifth year at the Church on Brady, McManus had persuaded members to sell their building and expand into rented spaces throughout the city. They would become a roving, nomadic congregation made up, as McManus says, of the people, the community. ‘We did that because we didn’t want people to think the church was a building."

Question: Gal 5:50, did Erwin really convince the congregation in 1997 to become a "roving, nomadic congregation"? Or was that BTI program just a figment of everyone's imagination?

From MOP comments (Erwin and poster know who they are)
"There were two very personal and sensitive issues that we shared in confidence with him and one of his staff. Erwin used both of those to disparage us and hurt our reputation with other leaders. That’s right. A complete and total violation of “Pastor/Parishioner privilege.” When I met with Erwin and one of his elders Erwin denied it. Only one problem, I have a couple of leaders that could not have known the two pieces of information that they told me unless Erwin told them as they said he did. In an attempt to try and deal with this further I phoned two other elders and requested they call me. Seven years later I am still waiting for them to return my calls."

Gal 5:50, Is this not a VERY serious issue, one in which Erwin should respond DIRECTLY, and PERSONALLY, not with a staff behind him?

Gal. 5:50, any mention of nice shirts in these two points?

Anonymous said...

Gal 5:15, (Who are you, are you SiR?)
Boy we are so lucky that Erwin is here to tell us where the church is wrong. And remind the world that Christians are the bad guys. We're not gettting persecuted enough. So let me get this straight. We turn on our own so the world won't turn on us. I guess he's lucky that we're around to remind him of his past actions. And we're nothing like Erwin. We have documented everything he has done, said and doing. He makes blanket statements about Christians. There is a world of difference sir or is it SiR?

P.S. We'll work on stopping "all" our discussions on Erwin's attire. We sometimes can't help it. :-)

Anonymous said...

Shirts, We Get Shirts

Anonymous said...

MOP is an effort to warn a Church, Mosaic, that their leader has neglected his responsibility as a Pastor. He is their lead Pastor and they now have responsibility to deal with him.

Anonymous said...

"...and walked away from the church 10-12 years ago yet still feel comfortable demanding that the church change to what we think it should be."

Some here were forced out. Others were treated poorly, lied to, disrespected. That can happen at any church. It just happened in this case to people that continue to listen to God, and He has led us to bring it into the light.

Anonymous said...

"...and walked away from the church 10-12 years ago yet still feel comfortable demanding that the church change to what we think it should be."

I guess that's the new line at Mosaic. A bunch of former disgruntled "employees" (members) taking out their anger on Erwin. Why is it that Robert's dismissal was kept secret from the "volunteer" staff. Another thing that confuses me is this, why do some members question Erwin's theology and still go to Mosaic because they have "relationships" there? These are the things that keep me up at night.

ariana said...

Sorry about everything that has been said and done according to this website. I attended Mosaic/Brady for 13 years.
some of the stuff, I know is true, some, seem hard to believe or even immagine. When I was at Mosaic, I certainly don't remember anything unbiblical being taught, nothing of great importance, and certainly not by Erwin.
If so much hurt has been caused, and I'm sure it has,I'm not sure whether God expects us to spend this much effort and time and energy demanding to be vindicated. I'm a great fan of justice and rightdoing, so if something illegal has happend, like taking people's donations and then not spending it for what it was meant for, then I think something should be done about it, legally, instead of so much talking back and forth. But if something spiritually is wrong, then I don't think we can force people to repent and we need to leave the work to to Holy Spirit.
I don't believe that Erwin is some hostile alien who just came to take over the Church on Brady with evil intent and premeditated malice. Whatever Erwin does and has done in the past I think he does with the conviction that it is the right thing to do. And being one that, according to himself, has the gift of self assurance I don't think any amount of arguing will persuade him to do differently. How many of you married ones have tried to force your spouse to change. Only God can change the heart. As for confronting Erwin and others as to the pain that has been caused and the wrong that has been done and bringing things out in the open, I think that has been sufficiently done.
At least Erwin is out there preaching and writing books, trying to reach a certain group of people in a way that may be more effective for them. Is he perfect? No. Are his books exhaustive in their presentation of the Gospel? No.
But here,on this website, I think we have some people whose time and energy and talents would be better spent out there ,like Erwin, writing and preaching and doing God's work, out there in the real world where it can benefit everyone. instead of so much writing and analyzing, and book commentaries in cyberspace for a narrow-focused, personal purpose of letting everyone know they've been done wrong and demanding restitution, resolution, or even reconciliation.

Anonymous said...

I now strongly recommend to Pastor Erwin to have the meeting with MOP with a third party arbitration. Your legacy is at stake. If you want to be our cultural architect and ikonoclast, I think you need to clear your name here in Los Angeles first. Are you afraid that a credible, objective panel won't see it your way? If they don't, perhaps you shouldn't be our culture's architect.

Respectfully,

Matt Shriver

aka Bibleman

Gal 5:15 said...

Firstly -- it's Gal 5:15. There's no such thing as Gal 5:50...at least that I know of ;). Second -- I don't even know what SiR is, so I have no clue on that one...

>Question: Gal 5:50, did Erwin really convince the congregation in 1997 to become a "roving, nomadic congregation"? Or was that BTI program just a figment of everyone's imagination?

His fifth year as pastor of Brady would be about 1999-2000, correct? (I've double-checked the dates against Yvonne's timeline.) Two/three years after the BTI campaign began. Greg Soohoo had been in charge of finding a new site, and from what I can recall, there had been various sites that Mosaic was interested in that had turned the church down due to various zoning ordinances. As late as 2004 Mosaic was still looking for land, but eventually, given the shift of Mosaic's community towards the westside, the increasing costs of buying land there, and that Mosaic's influence was expanding but not in one definable area, it would seem to make financial sense to avoid putting tent pegs down somewhere only to have God pull them back up. Being open to the Spirit means that original visions have to adjust. Mosaic's refunding of BTI money to those who requested it has been well-documented on this site. So these complains seem moot at this point.

>"There were two very personal and sensitive issues that we shared in confidence with him and one of his staff. Erwin used both of those to disparage us and hurt our reputation with other leaders. That’s right. A complete and total violation of “Pastor/Parishioner privilege."

Here's the problem with this post. As someone who has served in leadership before, I know that there are times when I am approached by people who want something they share with me to remain confidential, but the nature of what they shared makes it impossible to do so. And this is part of the problem with this site. Vague insinuations are made, without any information to back it up. If, for example (and I'm only spitballing here), a leader comes to me and shares that he's living in sexual sin, I can't keep that confidential. If a leader comes to me and says he's struggling with suicidal thoughts, and he's got influence with other people, I'm going to move to help that person, even if it means moving that person out of ministry. (Again, just spitballing.) If a ministry leader comes to me and says they're thinking about leaving the church for XYZ reasons, I'm probably not going to continue them in leadership. Since no one here know what the specifics of this situation are, and whether it was appropriate to be kept in confidence or what, it's very difficult to judge a situation like this the way that you'd want us to.

>Or how about the love he showed David T. when he called the police on him because of his work on MOP.

This is a really good story. One that has fueled the MOP's attack from the beginning. And one that is categorically untrue. You can't spam hundreds of Mosaic followers with a link to a MySpace page that had bloody imagery, posts about taking down the head of an organization so that it would fall, and a clock ticking down to zero without a member of Mosaic getting concerned and asking the police to see if there is a real threat here. The police investigated and decided for a number of reasons that a very real threat existed.

But don't let the truth get in the way of a good story.

that's mr. "SIR" to you said...

What up my MOP head peeps?! I'm back from vacation, and I wanted to check in and see if all of you were still bitter and obsessing over the past.

And it looks like nothing has changed. Shocking!

Rubey Tuesday, you are just a posting fiend, aren't you?

Yvonne, you are hilarious! I love that you are the blog police.

I like Gal. 5:15. Me thinks he speaks a lot of truth. Unfortunately, he is still under the assumption that you peeps actually care about truth.

MOPmember said...

Ariana,

You are entitled to your opinion.

Anonymous said...

Thank you Matt for being bold and encouraging Erwin to make things right. And thank you to the others at Mosaic, including leadership that are asking us to continue on this mission. MH

Anonymous said...

"Since no one here know what the specifics of this situation are, and whether it was appropriate to be kept in confidence or what, it's very difficult to judge a situation like this the way that you'd want us to."

Gal 5:15,

Actually, there is someone here that knows the specifics of the situation. And I have witnesses to back me up. It happened to me. As I commented with my name attached to it originally.

And, I am still awaiting the moment to have it addressed correctly.

And...

To Matt Shriver,

You are the first person at Mosaic that has gotten this right.

You have regained my respect.

Eddie Marshall

Anonymous said...

How was the vacation Scott?

MOPmember said...

"What up my MOP head peeps?! I'm back from vacation, and I wanted to check in and see if all of you were still bitter and obsessing over the past."

Are all of those that cry out for justice concerning the recent abuses of the Catholic Church "bitter and obsessive"?

Does it have to involve a criminal act for individuals that have been abused to come forward and 1. Try to warn others. 2. Ask that the Abuser be dealt with?

No, it just requires that some "peeps" stand up and speak out rather than shrink back and go away.

Anonymous said...

Bibleman,
Sounds like someone's going to get a visit.

Anonymous said...

Eddie,
Did you ever get an apology from Erwin or a "my-bad"? Anything?

Anonymous said...

"man of god"
"Unfortunately, he is still under the assumption that you peeps actually care about truth."

ha ha. Where did you go on vacation, the east coast? Did you hear the truth from your good friend? Care about the truth--Are you serious? What about you? There are people still wanting to tell you the truth but you and sarah b (wink, wink) still stick to your story that erwin has been on the up and up in his relationships with leaders. If you don't have the number to your good friends who have been fired I can give you those.

sir said...

MOPmember, I like that this site gives you something productive to do with your time. I think you are so cute!

Did someone say Bibleman? Wow! That's awesome! I've always wanted to meet Willie Aames. "Charles in Charge" was underrated my friends.

David Torres said...

I would like to say that I have not posted on this site under "Anonymous" ever. I have posted on this site under "Oncoming Traffic" and even then it's been a long while. I said I would step out of these blogs and I did(by my own choice). There is one topic however that I feel needs to be cleared up.

Gal 5:15,
Please email me, lets talk about this.

Capturescratch@yahoo.com

Anonymous said...

"Eddie,
Did you ever get an apology from Erwin or a "my-bad"? Anything?"


He denied it to my face.

Not until I became aware of the many other things he had/has done, to others as well, did I realize I needed to speak up.

By the way, I am not making an accusation here, it is a charge of misconduct.

EM

Anonymous said...

Too long have the Sheep allowed tyrannical, egotistical, power hungry and manipulative leaders to take over too many pulpits in the American church. It is time that we insist our leaders show the same love - not selective only to those that they like and can help them in their quest for fame - but Christ like love for their congregations. To Hell (literally) with their desires to make themselves celebrities and popular speakers throughout our community and the world.

We demand messages that challenge us to live more like Jesus, as our leaders should. Write books that help us understand God’s Word. Feed us meat and not “politically correct” milk.

Thank God the days of the above type of leader are coming to an end. They no longer can control what is communicated about their ministries because only they control the microphone. Thank God for MOP and sites that challenge us to get back to God and take honest looks at the King Sauls of today. Thank God for the Internet and the efficacy it affords God’s Sheep to take back the Truth!

This web site has a section called, “Abuse of Power” and I read an article listed there, “Narcissism in the Pulpit”. We obviously have a major problem in this country if an article like that needs to be written.

Yes, we are the Sheep, but only Jesus is our Shepard!

Anonymous said...

"Did someone say Bibleman? Wow! That's awesome! I've always wanted to meet Willie Aames. "Charles in Charge" was underrated my friends."
---SiR

Welcome to MOP Matt

Anonymous said...

Gal 5 when you get it cleared with David. Can you straighen out with Mosaic. Because I think the story has been twisted a little too much. I'm sure you as a leader will make this wrong a right.

Anonymous said...

Eric Bryant called the police on David while Erwin was at a speaking engagement.

Don't believe it? Ask him.

Anonymous said...

That sounds right. Eric calling the police for Erwin. I didn't know the whole controversey was who called the police. Did I miss something?

MOPmember said...

David T. had the first Mosaic of Pain web site (MySpace). Very creative, something that an Artist does to communicate. Nothing threatening, comments were a bit antagonistic at times, but that wasn't David.

Mosaic called the police on the web site. Out of responsibility to respond they went to David's house the night after three Mosaic members were sent there to "talk" to Robbie, David's father.

Both nights Robbie was not there, so David ended up having to answer the door both times.

The police told him he could leave the site up, nothing wrong with it, but David was sick of the badgering and took the site down.

Way to go Mosaic, self proclaimed encourager of Artists.

Too bad, it was a very creative site. : (

Anonymous said...

"I didn't know the whole controversey was who called the police. Did I miss something?"

Think about it. How does a church admit to shutting down freedom of speech?

There has always been denial to the fact that it was Erwin's right hand man that made the call.

Anonymous said...

Annonymous said:
"There has always been denial to the fact that it was Erwin's right hand man that made the call."

I'm truly sorry, clarify yourself.
Who made this denial? I appreciate it. And MOP Member thank you for sharing the "Dave story". I know it and I don't differ from you one bit. I would add that at the time I thought it was a mistake of David's to take it down. Very creative. But I now see the wisdom. He went through a lot with that organization. I'm sure he's received a lot of thanks over the years for all his work on the videos. I'm sure they don't use any of his work without permission. Because that wouldn't be right.

Gal 5:15 said...

Some more thoughts...

>I guess that's the new line at Mosaic. A bunch of former disgruntled "employees" (members) taking out their anger on Erwin.

There's no new line. It was pretty clear from the beginning that this site was started out of bitterness by a few ex-members with an axe to grind.

>Actually, there is someone here that knows the specifics of the situation. And I have witnesses to back me up. It happened to me. As I commented with my name attached to it originally.

I didn't ask if there were witnesses, Eddie. What I pointed out was that there are several situations where "confidentiality" can't be honored in a ministry context. Would you like to talk about what the issue was? Maybe then we can decide whether Erwin was out of line or not.

>David T. had the first Mosaic of Pain web site (MySpace).

David T created a disturbing MySpace page complete with bloody imagery, threatening language, and a ticking down clock, and then mass emailed a link out to Mosaic members. (And David, I got the request -- I saw the page -- I was concerned. I know a lot of people you spammed were. The general consensus was that whoever ran the site wasn't very healthy.) As I said before, you can't mass email a page like that out to hundreds of Mosaic members without someone getting concerned and contacting the staff. Eric Bryant did indeed call the police out of concern both for Erwin's safety, and for David's. Are you saying he shouldn't have? The police confirmed that Mosaic had reason to be concerned; they even suggested that Mosaic cancel its services that weekend. Mosaic leadership declined.

>There is one topic however that I feel needs to be cleared up. Gal 5:15, please email me, lets talk about this.

I'm sorry, David, but I don't think I would feel safe emailing you. I don't even like sticking around here, but it seems like someone has to be a voice of reason.

Anonymous said...

"...posts about taking down the head of an organization so that it would fall, and a clock ticking down to zero without a member of Mosaic getting concerned and asking the police to see if there is a real threat here. The police investigated and decided for a number of reasons that a very real threat existed."

You are creating unrest in your own Body by not being truthful. Long-term members are starting to talk about leaving because of your absolute refusal to engage in truth telling 1. The police felt there was no threat and even told him he could leave it. So you are lying.
Now how about some truth-telling. 1. Did not Erwin demand the resignations of all his elders last year?
2.Did not all the elders, except one, find this request rather alarming?
3. Did not Erwin use his brother Alex to fire Gerardo Marti?
4. Did not Erwin fire Alex after Alex created unrest among the elder board?
5. Did not Erwin fire Robert Martinez but told him to tell people that it was a retirement?
6. Isn't it true that Erwin has refused to come clean about these dismissals to the Body in general and to most of his leaders?
Here is your chance to tell the truth. And I tell you what: don't blow it. Members of your Body are reading this, some of whom already know the truth.

Matthew 5:24 said...

I guess that's the new line at Mosaic. A bunch of former disgruntled "employees" (members) taking out their anger on Erwin.

”There's no new line. It was pretty clear from the beginning that this site was started out of bitterness by a few ex-members with an axe to grind.”

No bitterness here friend. “A few ex-members”, well we’ll let the public decide on that one. And I guess you could tell your following what you like. Sorry that we don’t matter and our concerns are bothersome. I guess we should keep silent, but as we have seen these past months, we’re not alone. And your sensitivity speaks volumes of you and your organization. That be our ax.

And I would love to see one post that was threatening to you and your cultural architect on these blogs and Dave's. A clock. Now how is that threatening, maybe a phone call would have helped. And a phone call to see how David’s doing-ya know, not the one that his house is use too. And David’s picture bloody, well will let David explain that one. Dang artist. My artistic critique would be that you guys bloodied him. But you know you really should ask David. But I really get the feeling you don’t want to talk to him. (Sometimes there is comfort in the muddle) The funny thing is that you guys only saw it as threatening. No one else did. The police didn’t ask him to shut it down, so it’s a little hard to believe that they would want you to shut down your service, but hey maybe they had a Jekyll moment. Sometimes we create drama for ourselves. But you guys know more about drama than the rest of us. Right?

Anonymous said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Anonymous said...

My response was not to say I had witnesses, but rather say I KNOW. You called out Ruben by saying,

"Since no one here know [sic] what the specifics of this situation are, and whether it was appropriate to be kept in confidence or what, it's very difficult to judge a situation like this the way that you'd want us to."

The witnesses are just to corroborate what I know. When the time to address this officially occurs.

Of course you think that I am afraid to discuss the "issue" because it was private. Not the case. When the time comes I'll have zero problem disclosing how wrongly the pastor parishioner confidentiality was handled, fully disclosing all details.

Eddie Marshall

MOPmember said...

Gal 5:15,

You have been here with four or five different screen names over the past few months. Does that not bother you?

Don't you feel a bit funny doing that?

Anonymous said...

By the way. You know how from time to time there are comments dismissing MOP comments that are "Anonymous" on here?

I put my name on my comments and get e-mails from a couple of Mosaic leaders chastising me for commenting so much! LOL

Can't win...

Eddie M

Anonymous said...

if all of this is just a bunch of "bitter" old church members and none of it is true then we should just ignore it. it can not cause any problems. so everyone from Mosaic don't read this or write here.

Anonymous said...

And please don't call the police on Cris. He's really just the pawn of that evil genius Robby.

Gal 5:15 said...

Thoughts on thoughts...

I will only comment on what I know, but I'll try to answer the questions as best I can.

>1. The police felt there was no threat and even told him he could leave it. So you are lying. Now how about some truth-telling.

I never said the police ordered David to take the website down. (They couldn't, as there was no explicit threat mentioned.) The police however did come back to Mosaic leadership and inform them that it was their belief that a threat did exist and there was reason to be concerned for the safety of the congregation that weekend.

> 1. Did not Erwin demand the resignations of all his elders last year?

Ask Greg Soohoo if the elders resigned last year. The elder board is alive and well.

>4. Did not Erwin fire Alex after Alex created unrest among the elder board?

I don't know anything about this situation, but Alex is in Orlando and the elder board is in place. If the situation were as you seem to imply that it is, one would assume that Alex would be at Mosaic and the elder board wouldn't. This is not, in fact, the case.

>3. Did not Erwin use his brother Alex to fire Gerardo Marti?

I talked with Gerardo Marti when he was offered a teaching job in NC, and had to decide whether to continue with Mosaic or accept the job. As it was always his heart's desire to go into higher education and the reason why he went back for his PhD in the first place, he took the job. Not sure what controversy you're trying to create here.

>5. Did not Erwin fire Robert Martinez but told him to tell people that it was a retirement?

From Robert's letter it sounds as though there were conflicting visions at work -- not wrong, just different. What is a pastor supposed to do in this situation? Does a pastor not have the right to part ways with someone in this situation? (I don't think anyone familiar with the situation was under the impression that Robert left of his own volition.)

>You have been here with four or five different screen names over the past few months. Does that not bother you?

It's true, sometimes I've posted anonymously. (This was the case on Easter weekend, when I posted the majority of comments -- an interaction that seemed fruitful for some -- my comments are mostly gathered at the bottom of page 4.) But for the most part, I've only posted under my adopted screen-name and have never used a different one. And let he who has never posted here anonymously cast the first stone.

David Torres said...

Gal 5:15 I'm not sure but it seem as though you are trying to bait me. I would think mosaic would be pleased since I have not posted or created any materials regarding their organization in quite some time. Why not stick to arguing with the people who choose to continue to post on this page? Why are you trying to pull people who have exited this public discussion back in? It seems like that's taking steps backwards for you guys.

If we have not met, and you feel unsafe to email me(not sure what that means), then why don't you have a discussion with people who know me before you post about me again. Have a discussion with my cousins, John Torres, Danny Hernandez, Bobby and Sandy Duran who all still attending mosaic. Ask them how dangerous I am, but please don't post things about me if you want me to stay out of the argument.

Also, there were never any “bloody images” on the Mosaic of Pain myspace page. It seems as though someone from mosaic went to my personal myspace page and took stuff out of context. The person then strategically selected elements to take before the police however once the police talked with me they realized mosaic had over reacted. The police may have suggested that mosaic cancel services but that was only before they had met with me. The police where only going off mosaic’s twisted spin on the situation not base on anything I said or did.

The “bloody images” I think Gal 5:15 is talking about is an image from my film Resolution which I started creating two years before the start of Mosaic of Pain. The shot is of me with black paint and water raining down on me. This was also shot over two years ago, It had nothing to do with mosaic of pain. If people actually watched all my work and or contacted me to find out more then they would understand that the imagery represents sin. The whole film is about defeating sin and seeking God during times of uncertainty and fear. The Rafford video is all about a hunt for an inner enemy(sin) which we struggle our whole lives to rid ourselves of. If you watch the Rafford video keep in mind that I'm hunting the sin within myself not an actual real live person. Sin in this part of the film is represented by an imaginary character named Carpathia. By the way, the prop is a BB gun that doesn't even work.

It seems that mosaic found that it was convenient for them to take my work out of context, so that's what they did. It's funny how they pick and choose when to take things literal. I have no doubt that had I created the same film while I was still apart of their organization they would have had no problem with it as long as I attacked a red fingerprint at the end. If mosaic really was concerned about me then why hadn't they contact me the months before mosaic of pain when all my work was up on my myspace page for anyone to see? In fact, there were many people who are still apart of mosaic who were on my old personal myspace page before mosaic of pain. Many of them had only good things to say about my work.

Anyone who knows me or my work knows that I have always been about imagery and metaphors. If you watch clips from my film Resolution you might also see silly things like tortillas and and ladders floating around, don't worry it's not real.

MOPmember said...

THOUGHTS ON THOUGHTS ON THOUGHTS…

Gal 5:15 said...

Thoughts on thoughts...

I will only comment on what I know, but I'll try to answer the questions as best I can.

>1. The police felt there was no threat and even told him he could leave it. So you are lying. Now how about some truth-telling.

I never said the police ordered David to take the website down. (They couldn't, as there was no explicit threat mentioned.) The police however did come back to Mosaic leadership and inform them that it was their belief that a threat did exist and there was reason to be concerned for the safety of the congregation that weekend.

THAT WAS THE MONTEBELLO POLICE BASED UPON A PHONE CALL. THEN ERIC BRYANT WENT PERSONALLY TO THE ALTADENA POLICE AND THEY WERE THE ONES THAT VISITED DAVID & ROBBIE’S HOME. AFTER SPEAKING WITH DAVID T. AND LOOKING AT ALL OF THE WEB SITES, THEY TOLD HIM AND ROBBIE THAT NOTHING WAS OUT OF ORDER AND THERE WAS NO THREAT TO ANYONE.

> 1. Did not Erwin demand the resignations of all his elders last year?

Ask Greg Soohoo if the elders resigned last year. The elder board is alive and well.

THE QUESTION WAS, “DID NOT ERWIN DEMAND THE RESIGNATION OF ALL OF HIS ELDERS?” THEY DID NOT RESIGN, BUT HE TRIED. THE IMPLICATION, HE WANTS TO RULE WITH ZERO ACCOUNTABILITY.

>4. Did not Erwin fire Alex after Alex created unrest among the elder board?

I don't know anything about this situation, but Alex is in Orlando and the elder board is in place. If the situation were as you seem to imply that it is, one would assume that Alex would be at Mosaic and the elder board wouldn't. This is not, in fact, the case.

ALEX WAS ASKED TO LEAVE.

>3. Did not Erwin use his brother Alex to fire Gerardo Marti?

I talked with Gerardo Marti when he was offered a teaching job in NC, and had to decide whether to continue with Mosaic or accept the job. As it was always his heart's desire to go into higher education and the reason why he went back for his PhD in the first place, he took the job. Not sure what controversy you're trying to create here.

SOUNDS LIKE A POST FROM GERARDO MARTI IS IN ORDER.

>5. Did not Erwin fire Robert Martinez but told him to tell people that it was a retirement?

From Robert's letter it sounds as though there were conflicting visions at work -- not wrong, just different. What is a pastor supposed to do in this situation? Does a pastor not have the right to part ways with someone in this situation? (I don't think anyone familiar with the situation was under the impression that Robert left of his own volition.)

OF COURSE A PASTOR HAS THE RIGHT TO ASK ANYONE FOR THEIR RESIGNATION (OTHERWISE KNOWN AS FIRING) JUST DON’T SPIN IT AS A VOLUNTARY RESIGNATION. ESPECIALLY WHEN THAT HAS BEEN A PATTER OF ABUSE IN THE PAST.

>You have been here with four or five different screen names over the past few months. Does that not bother you?

It's true, sometimes I've posted anonymously. (This was the case on Easter weekend, when I posted the majority of comments -- an interaction that seemed fruitful for some -- my comments are mostly gathered at the bottom of page 4.) But for the most part, I've only posted under my adopted screen-name and have never used a different one. And let he who has never posted here anonymously cast the first stone.

MY BAD, I STAND CORRECTED, AND APOLOGIZE. THANK YOU FOR ANSWERING MY ACCUSATION SO GRACIOUSLY.

Gal 5:15 said...

David:

Thanks for the post. Not feeling safe talking to you has nothing to do with fearing danger; it has to do with the culture of hearsay and easy distortions that MOP seems to propogate. It's easier and clearer to communicate here, where everyone can see it and make their own judgments. Hope you didn't take offense; there was certainly none taken.

As far as discussing the MySpace page -- MOP posters are the ones who keep making casual comments about "Erwin calling the cops". They're the ones who keep bringing it up, and since they do, it seems worthwhile to unpack the actual events that happened, which involved the MOP page that was sent out.

For the record, I was one of those who received that email. I went to the site, so I know what I saw, as opposed to "Mosaic spinning it." A number of comments from Mosaic members talked about the unhealthy nature of the page in of itself, based on the blogs posted, the imagery, the clip from X-Men, etc. Whatever your intention with the imagery may have been, the cumulative effect was a number of Mosaic members who were very concerned about the well-being of the website's owner. Particularly since it was very clear that the page was not a personal page devoted to artistic expression, but a page devoted to airing issues with Mosaic's leadership, in perhaps the most unhealthy manner possible.

Matthew 5:24 said...

Gal 5,
Where do I begin? You write of the 6 points that a poster posted recently. I don’t know who that person is. These points have been discussed and corroborated by others. I was a little concerned by your response. I could only assume you were lying, which I think is not the case, or your getting your information from a certain cultural architect. I will go ahead and write down the points and your responses. I’ll include my comments at the end.
1. Did not Erwin demand the resignations of all his elders last year? Your response: Ask Greg Soohoo if the elders resigned last year. The elder board is alive and well. We are all aware that the elders are still kicking. The question was not answered. But we know the answer. And I believe that there are other elders that can provide this information as well. Follow me.

2. Well you didn’t answer question 2, probably because it went hand in hand with number 1. But the elders were alarmed.

3. Did not Erwin use his brother Alex to fire Gerardo Marti? Your response:
I talked with Gerardo Marti when he was offered a teaching job in NC, and had to decide whether to continue with Mosaic or accept the job. As it was always his heart's desire to go into higher education and the reason why he went back for his PhD in the first place, he took the job. Not sure what controversy you're trying to create here. This is where you are either lying or misinformed. The man was in pieces. The man was axed. Hey they maybe friends now, Gerardo really loved Erwin. Now witnesses to this will be brought out when we have our long overdue group meeting.



4. Did not Erwin fire Alex after Alex created unrest among the elder board? Your response: I don't know anything about this situation, but Alex is in Orlando and the elder board is in place. If the situation were as you seem to imply that it is, one would assume that Alex would be at Mosaic and the elder board wouldn't. This is not, in fact, the case. Once again we all are aware that the elder board is presently alive and well. Alex is in Orlando because his service were no longer needed. Hey, maybe he’ll come back now that Robert’s gone. Just a thought.


5. Did not Erwin fire Robert Martinez but told him to tell people that it was a retirement? Your response: From Robert's letter it sounds as though there were conflicting visions at work -- not wrong, just different. What is a pastor supposed to do in this situation? Does a pastor not have the right to part ways with someone in this situation? (I don't think anyone familiar with the situation was under the impression that Robert left of his own volition.) I believe this response may be the most disturbing out there for our MOP readers. I think it can be assumed that there are a lot of conflicting versions of things coming out of your camp. I’ve shown here that you believe whatever they tell you, or you’re Erwin. “What is a pastor supposed to do in this situation?” What situation are we talking about? The one where Erwin fired Robert after years of service and shortly before retirement. And I thought the Grinch was a bad guy. No one’s feeling bad about Erwin here. And then you share that you don’t “think that anyone familiar with the situation was under the impression that he left on his own volition.” You knew about how he was treated and you kept silent. Shame on you. This is terrible. I have a hard time believing the congregation would have been so dismissive.

6. Isn't it true that Erwin has refused to come clean about these dismissals to the Body in general and to most of his leaders? Your response: You have no response, but there learning about it now. What else have you guys been hiding?

Now Gal 5, you seemed to be a little upset about me having 5 screen names. I never had a screen name. But I do now. Maybe this was your way of painting the picture that there are just a few of us mop heads. Well no. I was always just anonymous. Bibleman, Mop Member, Oncoming Traffic, Yvonne W., and loweyesah were already taken. You can now Call Me Matthew 5:24.

P.S. A little info for you kids out there in MOP land. MOP members include Pastors, Youth Pastors, Missionaries, Former Missionaries, Life Group directors, where do you think we get our information? How can we all have the wrong story?

Matthew 5:24 said...

Gal 5,

My apologies. I thought the 5 screen name comment came from you. I did finally create my own. Matthew 5:24.

David Torres said...

Gal 5:15,
I respect your response. We can go on and on about this topic but I doubt we'll see it the same way anytime soon. I made great efforts over the last months to pull away from all of this so i'm asking you to help me continue to do so by not bringing my name back into this public conversation. If you change your mind and want to communicate privately through email you are welcome to do so anytime.

Again, I do not run this blog or any other blog regarding mosaic and I never post under anonymous.

Thanks everyone,

love David.

Capturescratch@yahoo.com
www.myspace.com/dtmcrombian

Cris Aguilar said...

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The conversation has been moved over one page, which is called MOP Comments (Pg 7).

Click the following link to continue on:

MOP Comments (Pg 7)


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Anonymous said...

"I now strongly recommend to Pastor Erwin to have the meeting with MOP with a third party arbitration. Your legacy is at stake. If you want to be our cultural architect and ikonoclast, I think you need to clear your name here in Los Angeles first. Are you afraid that a credible, objective panel won't see it your way? If they don't, perhaps you shouldn't be our culture's architect.

Respectfully,

Matt Shriver"


So what did Erwin and the powers that be say? Is anything going to happen?

Anonymous said...

"So what did Erwin and the powers that be say? Is anything going to happen?"

I would like to update you on what's happening in my own life. I mentioned in an earlier post that I'm reading Peppermint Pinatas by Eric Bryant. There's a chapter entitled, "Love is the New Apologetic." I went away after reading this chapter thinking about the biblical way of resolving conflict in the church according to Matthew 18. It's almost prophetic how this book addresses the situation that MOP finds itself in (NOT A PLUG FOR THE BOOK!) Don't know if the transcript went to print before or after MOP came about. Don't think it matters. What is important was for me to realize that blogging my concerns about Mosaic and the leadership is not following the biblical pattern of conflict resolution in the church.

I realize that many Mosaic Of Pain members have attemted to have face-to-face conversations with Erwin and some have. After this step, the next would be to take witness(es). The last step would be to take it before the entire church to be addressed and not to the courts.

Unfortunately, I have jumped all three steps by blogging. I've taken it before the entire world to see and thus possibly affecting the entire church negatively.

What I wish to do now, if possible, is to go back to step one by addressing my issues face-to-face. I called Pastor Erwin on Monday (9/10/07) and could only leave a message with Kim. I understand Erwin gets in town in the next couple days and eagerly anticipate his call to answer my questions,i.e. Brother Tom, BTI, Frank Loaiza, Robbie Sortino and Emergent Church Philosophy.

Your brother in Christ,

Matt Shriver